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Will the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal take down the Pope?

by: David

Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:03:29 AM EST


Not looking good.

A widening child sexual abuse inquiry in Europe has landed at the doorstep of Pope Benedict XVI, as a senior church official acknowledged Friday that a German archdiocese made "serious mistakes" in handling an abuse case while the pope served as its archbishop.
David :: Will the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal take down the Pope?
The archdiocese said that a priest accused of molesting boys was given therapy in 1980 and later allowed to resume pastoral duties, before committing further abuses and being prosecuted. Pope Benedict, who at the time headed the Archdiocese of Munich and Freising, approved the priest's transfer for therapy. A subordinate took full responsibility for allowing the priest to later resume pastoral work, the archdiocese said in a statement....

In Munich case, a priest from Essen, "despite allegations of sexual abuse, and in spite of a conviction - was repeatedly assigned work in the sphere of pastoral care by the then-Vicar General Gerhard Gruber," who worked under Benedict when he was the archbishop. The priest, identified only with the initial "H," was moved to Munich in January 1980, where he was supposed to undergo therapy, a decision that was taken "with the approval of the archbishop," according to the archdiocese's statement. Benedict was archbishop of Munich from 1977 to 1982. In June 1986, the priest was convicted of sexually abusing minors and given an 18-month suspended sentence with five years of probation, fined 4,000 marks and ordered to undergo therapy.

The former vicar general took full responsibility for the decision to reinstate the priest to pastoral work. "I deeply regret that this decision resulted in offenses against youths and apologize to all who were harmed by it," he said, according to a statement posted on the archdiocese's Web site.

And this is not ex-Cardinal Ratzinger's first encounter with the sex abuse scandal.

Experts said the scandals could undermine Benedict's moral authority, especially because they cut particularly close to the pope himself. As head of the Vatican's main doctrinal arm, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he led Vatican investigations into abuse for four years before assuming the papacy in 2005.... When a sex abuse scandal broke in Boston church in 2002, Pope Benedict - then Cardinal Ratzinger - was among the Vatican officials who made statements that minimized the problem and accused the news media of blowing it out of proportion.

But as the abuse case files landed on his desk at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, his colleagues said he was deeply disturbed by what he learned. On his first visit to the United States as pope, Benedict met with abuse victims from Boston and said he was "deeply ashamed" by priests who had harmed children.

But victims' advocates accuse the pope of doing little to discipline the bishops who permitted abusers to continue serving in ministry.

It looks to me as though this will quickly devolve into "what did he know, and when did he know it" territory.  From the same article:

There was immediate skepticism that Benedict, as archbishop, would not have known of the details of the [Munich] case.  The Rev. Thomas P. Doyle, who once worked at the Vatican Embassy in Washington and became an early and well-known whistle-blower on sexual abuse in the church, said the vicar general's claim was not credible.

"Nonsense," said Father Doyle, who has served as an expert witness in sexual abuse lawsuits. "Pope Benedict is a micromanager. He's the old style. Anything like that would necessarily have been brought to his attention. Tell the vicar general to find a better line. What he's trying to do, obviously, is protect the pope."

Finally, there is an interesting wrinkle that may affect the financial aspect of how this all plays out.

The scandal is not limited to Germany. This week, two dioceses in Austria suspended five priests pending investigations into allegations they had molested students. The church in the Netherlands has said it would open an investigation after more than 200 people came forward in recent weeks.

To many observers, the situation in Europe looked unsettlingly similar to that in the United States a decade ago, when a trickle of isolated abuse cases steadily grew into a widespread phenomenon that upended - and bankrupted - many American dioceses.

But in Europe, unlike in common-law countries like the United States, Canada and Australia, defendants cannot sue the church for negligence.

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I hope so (4.00 / 5)
It would be about fucking time.  

Hmm (0.00 / 0)
If you reject papal supremacy why are you bothering being a Catholic? No offense but if you don't believe that you are essentially denying an essential truth of the Church: the apostolic succession.  

[ Parent ]
Who said Apricot was Catholic? (0.00 / 0)
That being said, adhering to a church should never mean checking your own opinion at the door.

[ Parent ]
also (6.00 / 1)
- you rarely go to church
- you don't go to confession regularly
- you have sex before marriage
- you use birth control
- you get divorced
- you don't adhere strictly to all Church doctrine
etc.

The problem is that if all of the Americans who aren't Catholic enough for you were to leave the Church, there wouldn't be much of a church left.


[ Parent ]
I don't understand this Democratic Pope Hatred (3.50 / 4)
Or maybe I do. Historically there has always been a battle between Protestants and Catholics. Intil the middle of the 19th century Boston still had Pope's Day when protestant mobs would hold a riot in Boston to see which rioting mob would get to burn the effigy of the pope. Of course they would beat up any few stray Catholics.

Anti Catholic bigotry is nothing new in Boston. Interesting that it still continues today.

Massachusetts Election 2010
We dig up the dirt so you don't have to.


[ Parent ]
Christ on a bicycle. (6.00 / 5)
How many fucking times do we have to say this?  Criticism of the political positions and actions of the Catholic church hierarchy and individuals in positions of authority within that hierarchy - indeed, even harsh language about the Pope! - does not imply condemnation of Catholics generally or of Catholicism, let alone "anti-Catholic bigotry."

RESPOND TO WHAT PEOPLE SAID, NOT THINGS THEY DIDN'T SAY.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
So you're good with clergy sex abuse? (6.00 / 1)
We are discussing a conspiracy to shield and enable thousands of clergy sex abusers with tens of thousands of adolescent victims. You call discussion "anti-Catholic bigotry".

I'll bear your complaint in mind the next time I accompany an adolescent non-Catholic woman to the newly-opened women's health clinic in Brookline, where your peers create a gauntlet of vile abuse that terrifies an already-distraught young woman.

I'm beginning to understand this "Democratic Pope Hatred" myself.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Missed these replies (6.00 / 2)
My hatred of the INSTITUTION of the Catholic Church's hierarchy has to do with the fact that it routinely and systematically covered up and indeed AIDED AND ABETTED the sexual ABUSE of children, by moving priests around w/o warnings and without reporting.

I am all in favor of Catholic principles and religion or whatever if that's what floats your boat.  As long as you don't try to legislate your religious principles on me.  

But the INSTITUTIONAL way in which the Catholic Hierarchy HELPED PRIESTS RAPE CHILDREN--I am sorry, that shit deserves my vitriol.

Apologies if I seemed like I was hating on Catholics, when I'm just hating on the Catholic Institution and its disgusting, despicable and criminal relationship to RAPING CHILDREN and DESTROYING LIVES under the cloak of God's love.

I also really dislike the Church's homophobia and anti-choice positions, especially when it tries to influence legislation.  


[ Parent ]
The good news is (4.40 / 5)
even if the king can't be dethroned, his feudal underlings aren't bound to the land anymore.

BTW: I don't even think you picked the best Vatican scandal to hit the news. Check out this one.

The Catholic church's obsession with sex -- and trying to control it -- seriously undermines that institution and brings it to its knees. The hypocritical, morally-bankrupt corruption that's so pervasive within the leadership and institution (not the lay people) perhaps wouldn't be able to fester so badly if the Church decided to stop worrying so much about whether or not consenting adults were having sex and who those consenting adults were having sex with. Then, maybe, they could get to issues that are actually important and which could make the church relevant again, like advocating for peace and an end to poverty, the two things the Catholic church should be best at, but is utterly failing at because of its obsession with sex (is there any example more clear on this matter than the Church closing down its child adoption agencies for fear of having to allow gay couples in Massachusetts adopt special needs children who may not even otherwise be able to be fitted in a home? The same thing, as I understand it, is happening in DC, too).  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


The Church's positon on health care reform is deplorable (4.25 / 4)
They claim to be "pro-life" yet by their exclusive focus on abortion and health care reform they effectively support the status quo in which thousands of people die each year either because they are uninsured or because insurance companies deny needed care.

What hypocrisy!!

Lest I be misconstrued, I do not consider myself a Christian, but have two good friends who are Catholic priests.  I have participated in trips they have led to explore Christian history. I am a great admirer of James Carroll, an ex-priest who is still an observant Catholic despite his differences with the Church.  His latest book "Practicing Catholic" gives fascinating details.

I feel that Christianity has a vital message, that includes the repudiation of vengeance.  The two most important sayings of Jesus, IMHO, are "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone," and "Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of my children, you have done it unto me."

These teachings, of course, have been totally ignored by self-styled "Christians" throughout history, and most recently by the conservative "Christians" today.  Nothing Christian about them.

Web Developer, Photographer, long time political agitator


Please do not imply that 'Christian' is exclusively Roman Catholic - MANY Christians have nothing to do with that denomination. (5.33 / 3)


Yr. Obedient Servant, Peter Porcupine, Republican

[ Parent ]
Untrue (3.00 / 1)
They are all derived from that denomination and are still apart of it in the eyes of the Church. We'd love to have y'all back ;)

A true Christian would want to have something to do with the Church Christ started don't ya think?

;)


[ Parent ]
You really want to go there? (6.00 / 4)
As I recall there was quite the schism between Rome and Constantinople in 1054 which has yet to be reconciled.  We Protestants decided a few centuries ago that Church teachings weren't necessarily what Christ had in mind.  There are of course Christian churches in the east, such as Coptic and Armenian, that were never part of the Roman orbit.

[ Parent ]
It was a joke (6.00 / 1)
Did you not see the emoticons?

[ Parent ]
Jesus Christ did not start the Catholic Church (6.00 / 2)
please read some history as to the formation of the church. Early Christianity was a very different kind of thing, with many different, wide-spread beliefs, that weren't squished together and codified for well over a hundred years after the crucifixion. I sometimes think the people who know the least about the Christian religion are people who practice it most often.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
Further evidence to support this claim (0.00 / 0)
The New Testament was written after all in Latin not Greek. Thus, clearly the Roman Catholic Church is the original denomination, no?

[ Parent ]
Sarcasm alert (0.00 / 0)
I enjoy it, but there are, sadly, likely to be some readers who don't know the history of the amalgamation of texts we now call "the New Testament" and therefore don't understand that you're being sarcastic (or "ironic" or "sardonic").

I'm somehow reminded of the apocryphal one-liner attributed to a fundamentalist literalist Protestant: "If the King James Version was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
I don't read MichaelBate's comment as implying any such thing. (6.00 / 1)
He certainly relies on the assumption that all Catholics are Christians, but not the converse.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
I certainly didn't intend to imply that 'Christian' is exclusively Roman Catholic (0.00 / 0)
Not sure how you got that impression from my posting.  Of course the original article is about the Catholic Church, and I have many Catholic friends.  FWIW, I was brought up as a Quaker and attended an Episcopal elementary school and a Quaker high school.  I never joined the Quaker church, but contribute regularly to the American Friends Service Committee.  I have sometimes attended Unitarian services.

But the thrust of my posting was the relevance of the original Christian teachings, which are vitally important today, regardless of whether Jesus performed miracles, or had a virgin birth, and regardless of whether Jesus actually existed.

To put it bluntly, it's hard to think of anything more diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus than the policies of the Republican party today.

Web Developer, Photographer, long time political agitator


[ Parent ]
You probably meant to reply to Peter Porcupine above, not me. (0.00 / 0)


Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
You're right (0.00 / 0)
My reply was misplaced, but I stand by what it said.

And I appreciate your correction of Peter Porcupine's misreading of my posting.

Web Developer, Photographer, long time political agitator


[ Parent ]
Pro-Life Catholics Speak Out FOR Reform (6.00 / 2)
From the National Catholic Reporter:
http://ncronline.org/print/17396

[ Parent ]
really? (0.00 / 0)
The Church has always supported universal health care, since the 1890s in fact, with the encyclical Rerum Novarum. The Church has also always held that life begins at conception and thus cannot support the wholesale slaughter of innocent life sponsored by a government entity, which would have been the case had Health Care Reform destroyed the Hyde Amendment and allowed tax payer dollars to fund what the Church considers to be a most heinous and horrible act. Thanks to courageous Democrats like Bart Stupak the push to do that has stopped. While I disagree with his attempt to prevent private insurers from funding abortion, I am glad that his amendment forced the leadership to stop its crusade to gut the Hyde Amendment and backtrack to keeping it.  

[ Parent ]
I think you have the Hyde Amendment issue wrong. (6.00 / 2)
People were always saying that the language left the Hyde Amendment in place and that it was never a question that it would stay in place.  My understanding is that Stupak goes beyond that.

[ Parent ]
Can you please cut out the ratings abuse? (6.00 / 1)
Stop handing out zeros just because you disagree. It is violates the spirit and intention of the ratings and is a childish response.


[ Parent ]
Another explanation (0.00 / 0)
Its not ratings abuse when people are saying incredibly hurtful and ignorant comments about my faith. Had anyone said anything similar about Jews theyd be banned no questions asked.

[ Parent ]
Oh please (6.00 / 3)
That analogy is beyond absurd.

Your comments on this thread so far don't give me much hope that you'll understand why it's absurd, though, so let me try to explain.

1) The Roman Catholic Church is a single, specific, very large and wealthy organization with a clear hierarchy of authority and a single leader, which has exerted enormous political influence around the world for (give or take) sixteen hundred years.  Judaism is not.

2) Comparing criticism of the Catholic Church to bigotry against and oppression of Jewish people is pretty shocking, to be honest, and this point I really shouldn't have to explain any further.

3) NO ONE on this thread has said anything worse about Catholics in general than that they support a corrupt institution and hopefully after these revelations about that institution's corruption some of them will stop.

4) Moreover, no one has said anything negative about the Catholic faith specifically on this thread, although way down at the bottom I did argue that all religious faith is harmful.  (And you didn't even zero that, though perhaps you just haven't gotten around to it yet.)

Every criticism on this thread has been directed at the Catholic organization, not the faith: the specific history and documented actions of the specific people who constitute the hierarchy, and the policies they've put in place.  Nothing about being Catholic obliges you to insist that the church hierarchy is, always has been, and always will be incapable of doing anything wrong (and I somehow doubt you're planning to start defending the Borgias or the Inquisition).

You haven't been defending your faith against vicious anti-Catholic bigotry; you've just been trying to stifle any criticism of an institution you're not personally capable of questioning.  That is absolutely an abuse of the rating system.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
My wife and I have followed this rather closely (4.00 / 4)
My wife, having grown up in Bavaria, has been reading German-language coverage of this as it has developed.

In addition to the issues raised in the piece you cite, serious and well-documented allegations are surfacing about Goerg Ratzinger, brother of the former Cardinal Ratzinger:

Meanwhile, the scandal swirling around Benedict's brother, Georg Ratzinger, escalated with the first public allegations of abuse of choirboys during some of the 30 years he ran the boys' choir in Regensburg. Thomas Mayer told Germany's Der Spiegel weekly that he had been sexually and physically abused while a member of the Regensburger Domspatzen boys choir through 1992.

The pontiff's brother led the group from 1964 to 1994. Previously reported cases of sexual abuse date back to the late 1950s.

Mayer charged in Spiegel that he had been raped by older pupils. Spiegel quoted him as saying that pupils were forced to have anal sex with one another in the apartment of a prefect at the church-run boarding school attached to the choir. The Regensburg diocese has refused to comment on the report.

A related issue is surfacing in Germany that is not, so far, widely reported here: the question of why secular German authorities have been and are now so reluctant to aggressively pursue these apparent crimes. Sound familiar?

It would seem that the US sex-abuse scandals were not, as claimed, an "aberration".

It is becoming increasingly clear that they were known about, covered up, and enabled by the very highest levels of Vatican authority — including the current Pope. It leads to a new (at least for me) vein of speculation about the cushy treatment given Bernard Law by Vatican authorities — perhaps Bernard Law knew a great deal more about Vatican involvement than he has publicly said. It seems increasingly clear that the Vatican has strong and self-serving motivation to ensure that Bernard Law is "protected" from secular authorities in the US. Bernard Law's handling of the clergy sex abuse cases during his tenure now looks like an obedient middle-manager faithfully executing policy directives from his superiors.

Tell me again why this institution should not be prosecuted as an international criminal organization?


"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


How about.... (6.00 / 1)
...we prosecute the actual abusers and those who actively served as accessories?  The Church is not a criminal organization, but this is hardly the first time you've demonstrated what frankly strikes me as anti-Catholic bigotry.  I remember when you wanted to hold the Church responsible for the lone nutcase who murdered Dr. Tiller.  In the case of the Pope, the only country he's operated in as far as I know is Germany.  He has not committed any crimes in any other country.  I'm all for prosecuting perpretators in this country and am certainly glad that "benefit of clergy" is no longer a part of most legal systems.  Even the Bishops who moved priests around I'm not sure they are prosecutable if they did that before mandatory reporting requirements took effect.

[ Parent ]
Accessories (6.00 / 4)
Anyone who failed to report criminals to the police, and who actively concealed crimes, and who enabled the commission of repetitions of those crimes, are accessories to those crimes.

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

[ Parent ]
Like for example, (6.00 / 1)
this guy.

Note the date of the article.

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?


[ Parent ]
I know that is now the case. (0.00 / 0)
What I'm not sure of is how long it has been legally required for persons such as teachers, priests, etc. to report suspected abuse.  I'm also refering to voluntarily initiating contact with authorities, as opposed to stonewalling or otherwise obstructing justice when the authorities themselves come calling.

[ Parent ]
Is THAT your standard for those who claim moral authority? (6.00 / 2)
Let me see if I correctly understand your argument.

We are talking about priests, bishops, cardinals ... all the way up the line, apparently to the Pope himself. Each of these, from the lowliest priest to the Pope, claims moral authority — such authority is the very essence and foundation of their relationship with young men and women.

You seem to be saying that when these authority figures learn that one of their peers or subordinates is abusing his relationship with the children in his charge, they have no legal obligation to disclose that knowledge to secular authorities.

While I grant that you may be literally correct, I hope you realize exactly how devastating this particular defense is to the very fabric of the institution they represent.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
I thought we were talking legally. (0.00 / 0)
Of course I agree with you that these actions, and the coverups thereof, are morally repugnant.  People (largely you) have been talking about such things as arrest and prosecution, which can only happen according to the statute law in the jurisdiction in which the crime was allegedly committed.  No bills of attainder or ex post facto laws need apply.

[ Parent ]
He was talking legally. (0.00 / 0)
...they have no legal obligation to disclose that knowledge to secular authorities.


"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
Please note (0.00 / 0)
the construction of my comment. I did not say "anyone who failed to go to the police OR who actively concealed crimes OR who enabled the commission of repetitions of those crimes..." Also, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure anyone who does either of those last two things is an accessory to the crime, whether they are priests or not. That may be different in other countries, but I doubt it.

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

[ Parent ]
More than just accessories... (6.00 / 1)
... but conspirators after the fact.  You're supposed to report crimes you know about - not hide them behind a global organization dedicated to, among other things, hiding them.  That this protectionism has been systemic of the church through among its highest leadership is on the record.  That means the term 'criminal organization' does apply.  Sorry to be the bearer of unwanted news.  If the leadership within Microsoft came to official corporate actions that conspired to violate law, the organization would be held liable as well as the individuals involved.  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
No (4.80 / 5)
The Pope is answerable to God, not the millions of people who fund his lavish lifestyle, not the beliefs that the Church says it promotes.  He's like the Ayatollah without the attitude problem.


~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


Give unto Caeser that which is Caesar's (3.00 / 2)
I appreciate that your comment is intended to be satirical (or perhaps ironic), but far too many people actually believe this to be true.

The Pope may be answerable to God, but a great many members of his organization live in, and are therefore answerable to, secular US authorities. The same is true in Germany, Austria, and each other sovereign nation that has secular authorities.

I don't know what God exacts as punishment, but "Caesar" tends to demand large amounts of money and extended periods of incarceration. Both seem highly appropriate.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
The Pope is sovereign... (0.00 / 0)
...as is the Vatican.  No other nation's laws can touch him now.  I'm not even aware of any kind of impeachment process within Canon Law.  Bishops operating in other nations are certainly bound by the laws of those nations, but the Pope basically IS Caesar.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
My point is that anyone who wants to can arrest him (or anyone else) once he leaves the geographical boundaries of the Vatican. It is becoming more and more clear that this abuse was not an isolated aberration here and there; it is endemic in the institution, and its cover-up is endemic in the institution.

Society enacts laws to protect minors from risk, and especially from sex predators. Minors are not permitted to view certain movies, enter certain establishments, or consume certain beverages. If the Catholic church shows itself to be an active participant in conspiring to protect those who sexually abuse minors, how long will it be before it is forbidden from offering activities for minors?

This is sex abuse of minors we're talking about here, in staggering numbers. The prosecution by secular authorities is the best outcome that can happen here — if the Vatican isn't careful, they may well find themselves facing the outcome that John Geoghan encountered.

This is dangerously inflammatory and provocative behavior we're talking about now, and I strongly suspect that secular authorities will, one way or another, find a way to contain and punish it. I can think of few things more likely to incite fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters to violence than sexually abusing their children and siblings.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Anyone can arrest? (0.00 / 0)
Don't you have to commit a crime in that jurisdiction first?  Germany, maybe, but keep in mind the laws and protections are not universal.

[ Parent ]
Not endemic to the institution (0.00 / 0)
So far we have had individual dioceses and individual bishops and cardinals covering up abuse, NOT the entire Church. Cardinal George in Chicago for one has been especially vigorous of course the media doesn't like to follow the good guys since they don't sell papers.

The Church is not corrupt since it is the Body of Christ on Earth. While all the members are sinners those sins cannot overshadow the overwhelming grace and majesty of Christ on Earth which is untainted and free from sin.  


[ Parent ]
Oh my (2.00 / 2)
We are talking about an institution whose politics, practices, and policies make it a magnet for conflicted homosexual men who hate women and fear sex. The abuse of adolescent boys by Catholic clergy is endemic because the culture disproportionally selects from a population predisposed to such behavior. The cover up of this abuse is endemic because the causal connection between fundamental aspects of the institution and this behavior is readily demonstrated. Vatican authorities choose now, as they have chosen for at least decades, to disparage the victims, stonewall secular authorities, and loudly complain of "anti-Catholic prejudice" rather than address the root causes of this abuse.

Your attempted piety is better-suited for Sunday Mass than this forum. We are not discussing "grace" and "majesty".

Instead, we are discussing adult male authority figures who coerce boys — some as young as eleven — into performing oral sex on them, accepting anal intercourse from them, and passing them from one to another when they grow bored with them. We are talking about authorities who, when told of this behavior, transferred the men in question to new assignments where they did the same thing to more children, while paying hush money to the families of the known victims to silence them. Not by the ones and twos, or by the dozens, but by the thousands and tens of thousands. Tens of thousands of victims, thousands of perpetrators, over a span of decades. I'm not sure I can imagine anything more "endemic" than this. We are talking about elevating the man who crafted and led this defense strategy (as Prefect of the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith") to Pope, and then claiming sovereign immunity from prosecution based on that office.

This behavior is the very definition of "corrupt institution".

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Systemic (6.00 / 2)
Irish archbishops protected reputation at expense of victims, report says
The government said the investigation "shows clearly that a systemic, calculated perversion of power and trust was visited on helpless and innocent children in the archdiocese."

Victims Blast Catholic Officials for Not Releasing Secret Records
Almost a year after they were promised, secret records with the Catholic Church in Portland, Oregon are still secret. A group representing sex abuse victims from the Catholic Church says the blame lies squarely with Portland's archbishop, John George Vlazny.

Clergy sex abuse victims continue to harshly criticize Portland Catholic officials for "continuing to keep long-secret records about alleged pedophile priests and corrupt church supervisors hidden."


A history of secrecy, coverups in Boston Archdiocese  

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

[ Parent ]
Okay (0.00 / 0)
So you have proven that a few bishops in some dioceses decided to cover their asses rather than deal with the proper authorities. I can also provide you with evidence showing that Cardinal Egan and Cardinal George fully cooperated with authorities in their diocese. Additionally Benedict now implemented an intensive screening process to stop pedophiles from entering the church and a zero tolerance policy to take any sexually active priest out of the priesthood.


[ Parent ]
I think it's pretty clear... (6.00 / 2)
...that institutions cannot do these things - people do.  At least I'm assuming that no general council of the Church enacted a policy saying it will knowingly and willingly harbor abusers.

[ Parent ]
Finally (0.00 / 0)
A voice of reason, an oasis in the desert, and from a Protestant no less!

[ Parent ]
Just call 'em as I see 'em (0.00 / 0)
I could never be Catholic myself, but I've been fascinated by the Roman Catholic Church for sometime, both the good and the bad.

[ Parent ]
Institutions can absolutely... (6.00 / 1)
... be culpable in a cover-up, as has been shown many many times in legal history.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
It's still people within the institutions though. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Yes, but there is no 'though'. (0.00 / 0)
The existence of people in the chain does not speak one way or the other on any institutional culpability.  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
How many do you need? (0.00 / 0)
I could link to many more diocese where the exact same thing happened. Or you could do the search yourself. This is not an aberration; it appears to be extremely widespread. To turn your comment around, I could say "OK, you have shown* that two cardinals cooperated with authorities." Two. What is that supposed to tell us? Did anyone claim that ALL cardinals covered up pedophile priests?

Also, it was not just their asses that the bishops were covering, but the asses of criminal priests who could not keep their hands off the asses of children in their care.

* Actually, you have only alleged that those two cardinals behaved properly, since you didn't actually provide the evidence.

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (4.00 / 1)
From this comment I can infer that you think homosexuality and pedophilia are one in the same, and that you think the Dali Lama hates women and fears sex because he is celibate.

Similarly I guess rabbis hate women and fear sex too, and maybe Laurel thinks that the Jews are a bunch of child rapists.

All religious organizations have had pedophile issues, the evangelicals had Haggard engaging with underage male hookers and Baker committing acts of statutory rape, Elijah Muhammed the late head of the Nation of Islam was engaged in several pedophilic acts of statutory rape with subordinates, Mohammed was probably a pedophile by today's standards since the Koran says he took several wives under our modern age of consent without their consent, and the New York Jewish congregation has had an extensive pedophile crisis and an extensive cover up as well but for some reason I don't see you and Laurel going around calling for the Jews to be arrested the same way you are going after priests. Additionally none of those denominations have clerical celibacy so the patterns of abuse in the Catholic church are completely unrelated to clerical celibacy. Clerical abuse occurs because like any figure of power, some lesser men with power get corrupted and think they can do whatever they want and unleash any of the toxic desires lurking within them. The Catholic church is not unique in having a pedophile problem or even in its response to that problem, what is unique is that there are more cases simply because the Church is so much larger than those other organizations.

I think you are motivated by a particular brand of hatred and contempt for the Church, I suspect you might be a lapsed Catholic yourself and you have deep aversions to the faith of your father. I do hope and pray that this relationship can be healed, and even if I am mistaken I at least ask that you treat other religious beliefs besides your own lack of belief with respect and quit making generalized statements about priests. Every priest I have ever interacted with has been a decent and loving human being who respects women and men alike. One noted homosexual priest died while administering last rites at the World Trade Center site and was not a pedophile in any sense. The vast majority of priests serve their parishes with dignity, humility, and respect. The celibacy which you so mock and vilify is an important sacred trust that keeps the priest focused on loving God and serving his fellow man. It is not because they fear sex or find it disgusting and immoral, in fact Scripture and the Church encourages sex (between married adults) as a natural loving act that brings two people together within the grace and love of God. The priests are celibate because celibacy is part of a broader ascetic ethos of rejecting all material concerns including money, power, as well as the flesh of others.

I have maybe interacted with over 30 priests during my lifetime, most of those interactions occurring when I was a more vulnerable minor, and never did I feel unsafe. This is the case for the majority of Catholics who love their priests and have a special bond with them. In the less than .01% of cases where a priest is a deviant pedophile, than this relationship is torn asunder and abused, and for this reason the Church has finally been vigilant in standing up to abusers, bringing them to the civil authorities, and compensating the victims. It is not just because they are fearful of losing money, they are fearful that this bond and sense of trust will be permanently broken, and that ignorant people like yourself along with true enemies of the Church will use the exception to define the rule regarding priests. Your statements are shameful but I suspect they are born out of ignorance not hatred.


[ Parent ]
Yes, yes and yes. (0.00 / 0)
I think you are motivated by a particular brand of hatred and contempt for the Church,

There is an unfathomable  depth and breadth to my hatred and contempt I feel for an organization that takes such a cavalier attitude towards such vicious treatment of women and children.   Do you dispute this? Do you say these things did not occur? Do you say my hate is not justified?   Do you contend that I have no reason for contempt?    Ratzinger, if he had any sense of true christianity  would resign the papacy and go live in a cave for the remainder of his earthly existence, fasting and praying for absolution for his sins.

I suspect you might be a lapsed Catholic yourself and you have deep aversions to the faith of your father.

The very idea of 'lapsed catholic' puts the church on a pedestal, as though it is an ideal to be achieved.    I'm a better Catholic, without having stepped into a church in years, than Joseph Ratzinger and the Vatican pretty boys. They are the ones who have lapsed... as have you in your defense of them.   This very conversation, so strenuous in it's attempts to shift the focus AWAY from the victims, so numerous and so injured, towards some sense of victimization for the abusers and their enablers, is, frankly, disgusting. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I do hope and pray that this relationship can be healed, and even if I am mistaken I at least ask that you treat other religious beliefs besides your own lack of belief with respect and quit making generalized statements about priests

I do not make generalized statements.  I know priests who have abused boys. I know priests who have commited adultery (often with women who came to them with marital problems...)  I know drunks and enablers and bullies and feckless thugs, all priests.   You know them too... but you refuse to see.  

---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
. (5.00 / 1)
An excellent example of why discussions of religion on this site are so utterly devoid of utility.  They provide much heat, no light, and are thoroughly counterproductive.  They function more as an opportunity for the expression of hatred toward Catholics.

jconway, I suspect the problem is greater than you let on, but it accomplishes nothing to discuss it with people such as these.


[ Parent ]
Given his experiences... (0.00 / 0)
... I don't think anyone could blame his hatred here.  I'd also point out that he hasn't expressed hatred for Catholics, but rather the Catholic church.  There is a difference.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
There is indeed. (0.00 / 0)
For the most part, however, I don't see it here.  

[ Parent ]
Show me where... (6.00 / 2)
... he has called out Catholics other than those priests that have offended? (as opposed to calling out the Church).  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
Much of this thread (3.67 / 3)
is devoted to "debate" of the proposition of whether the entire church--not the bishops, not the clergy, but the entire church--is a criminal enterprise.

BMG discussions of this nature are mostly performance art: posters need to perform their opinions in the most heated terms possible.  It isn't intended to be a discussion, but a generalized denunciation.

And it is not worth the emotional or physical energy to respond.  It was foolish to become engaged in this thread at all.


[ Parent ]
Performance art? Only because you (5.33 / 3)
aren't interested in the debate, it seems.  There may have been a time when you felt strongly about other issues and posted here accordingly.  Clearly that time has passed for you, but your lack of interest doesn't automatically devalue the contributions of others who feel sincerely and strongly about serious issues you'd rather not debate.

This has been a discussion, albeit one you don't happen to like.  Has it been a heated one?  Yes.   Does one side outnumber the other?  Yes.  I'm fairly certain, however,  that if the tone and tenor had been more favorable towards the efforts of the Catholic church, you'd be much happier with the content and more likely to value the exchange.

Let's be clear:  it's not worth your emotional or physical energy to respond.  Indeed, while you may claim that you are "engaged" in this thread, a quick glance at the names of the participants will reveal that's not the case.  Consequently, your lament over any genuine engagement on your part appears to be more than a little bit like performance art you  mock.

Many extended debates occur on this blog that don't resonate with some or many of the usual contributors.  Their lack of participation, however, does not render the heartfelt debate that does occur worthless,  empirical declarations about its character or value by disengaged bystanders notwithstanding.  


[ Parent ]
Indeed... (6.00 / 1)
Some of the bravest persons I've ever met have been ordinary Catholics who've had to soldier on, in their lives, in their faith, in their relationships with God... after searing betrayal.   Bernard Law tried very hard to bind people to silence by calling their accusations 'confession'...  a binding that many Catholics have taken seriously, even those who ultimately rejected it and went public with accusations of abuse.  Something like that takes a great deal of courage, both moral and intellectual.

My scorn, contempt and, yes, hatred is directed most at those who know all... the College of Cardinals and the Pope. They could show as much bravery as those ordinary Catholics and reveal all.  Indeed, their doctrine demands exactly that.   But the horror is real: the scope of conspirators and their silence, long and exquisitely cruel, and in service to nothing but their self-interest and in direct opposition to Gods commands to be both just and merciful, is a fact.   It is to be perfectly blunt, an abomination.  They are craven and cowardly and not worthy of the defense of honest Catholics.

What gets me most upset, if you couldn't tell already, is that honest Catholics defend these bozos when they ought to be the most upset...  

---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
As if there were no such... (0.00 / 0)
... thing as INTERPOL?

If he committed crimes, they were crimes in a German jurisdiction as a German citizen.  I think if Germany wanted to press the issue they could apply for an international warrant through INTERPOL.  If he ever left the Vatican into an INTERPOL jurisdiction, I don't think he would be untouchable.  Don't forget that the warrant served to Pinochet while in Britain was a Spanish warrant.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)


[ Parent ]
Hmm (0.00 / 0)
You seem very eager to make sure the people who were responsible for molesting and raping literally thousands and thousands of children across the Globe get away with it.

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
Not quite (0.00 / 0)
First I'm not buying that the Pope is directly responsible for molesting thousands of children.  Second I'm just commenting on what it seems his status would be under international law.  As a current head of state he would enjoy diplomatic immunity.

[ Parent ]
Were Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay responsible (6.00 / 1)
for illegal accounting practices at Enron, even if they didn't personally cook the books or even order them cooked, given that they did know about the practices and didn't put a stop to them?  That's how hierarchical organizations work: the buck stops at the top.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Depends (0.00 / 0)
My understanding of American corporate law is that such people are ultimately responsible, though I'd be tempted to ask what did they know and when did they know it.  A recurrent problem on this thread seems to be that people are trying to apply American jurisprudence to the Pontiff, along with assumptions such as consent of the governed, etc.  If a Bishop in the USA molested a child or failed to report such, then the state in which such happened should absolutely prosecute, but the Pope is really beyond our reach.

[ Parent ]
Beyond reach, unless... (6.00 / 2)
.. the evidence actually points to him, as it does in the German case.  Moreover, he was a German citizen living under German law at the time, further expanding his legal vulnerability.  It's not like there are no such things as international criminal, international warrants, extraditions, and INTERPOL.  I don't know how the story is playing legally in Germany, but if they are pissed off enough, I'd worry about travel plans.  I'd be interested to see what his travel schedule was before the story broke and what it was after.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
Nope. (5.00 / 2)
Though I think state officials were far too lenient in who they went after for criminal misconduct, I haven't seen anyone suggest trying to extricate the Pope or something. What I've specifically said in this thread is that practicing Catholics ought to force changes in the church that would prevent something like the child molestation scandal from ever happening again. Clearly, the Church has not learned its ways and its efforts at secrecy are as strong as ever, given the fact that the scandal just keeps growing wider over time. It's well past time for lay people to be put in charge of running the actual church and for the Pope to be a largely ceremonial position -- no more than a spiritual leader. Well, at least that's the opinion of this former Catholic.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
I'll rephrase myself, (0.00 / 0)
responsible for shuffling those who were directly responsible for the act, therefore propagating it.

Cardinal Law, then-Cardinal Ratzinger and many, many more of them didn't molest children themselves, but they shuffled around those who did, or sent them to retreats for prayer and 'therapy,' sending them back for more. You've had a lot of good to say in this thread, but over all I think you come down way too easy on the church leadership. It was their acts of cover-ups which allowed what could have been a few, local cases into a major, systemic and macro problem that transcends continents.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
That isn't the accusation, Christopher (6.00 / 1)
The accusation is that Joseph Ratzinger knowingly and intentionally concealed the abuse of thousands of adolescents, mostly boys, by clergy. The accusation is that he conspired with Bernard Law and many other high-ranking church officials to take whatever steps (both legal and illegal) were necessary to conceal these crimes. The accusation is that Joseph Ratzinger ordered the payment of hush money, orchestrated (directly or indirectly) the transfer of known abusers from one parish to another — across state (in the US) and national borders.

Even as head of state, the enormity of this coverup is (or should be) enough to trump legalistic objections like the one that the Church (and you) offer.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Disagree (0.00 / 0)
We're not talking about war crimes here, but even Nuremburg had rules and didn't railroad people.  Only the Church itself can bring down a Pope, and I don't know what statute of limitations Germany might have.  The Pope has been in the Vatican for awhile; it's been several years since he has been a German Archbishop.  Bishops accused of these acts and being accessories thereof can and should be prosecuted according to the laws of the respective jurisdictions.  This is the first I'm hearing of paying hush money or any other Vatican involvement beyond giving people like Cardinal Law a soft landing.  You're making it sound like a lot more of a deliberate and centrally organized conspiracy than I've ever understood this to be.  I suppose if there are any crimes Law committed such as failure to report, for which the statute of limitations has not expired, Massachusetts could try to get the US to extridite, but I don't know if we have such a treaty with the Vatican.  Regardless of the outrage there's still nothing we can do about the Pope.

[ Parent ]
Who said "we"? (0.00 / 0)
Joseph Ratzinger accepted Bernard Law's resignation in 2002, only eight years ago. It was Bernard Law who paid hush money, and evidence is mounting that he did so under the orders of Joseph Ratzinger; the similar tactics in Ireland, other dioceses in the US (I've lost track there's been so many), and now Germany suggest an orchestrated strategy. Joseph Ratzinger was, after all, the Vatican official who handled the church's responses to clergy sex abuse. If there was an orchestrated strategy (and it's difficult to imagine otherwise, given the nature of the institution and the officials involved), Joseph Ratzinger is the official most likely to have crafted it. All of this was surely known when he was elevated to Pope.

I'm making it sound like a deliberate and centrally organized conspiracy because events in Germany are leading in precisely that direction; that's what this thread is about.

I agree that extraditing Joseph Ratzinger, or anybody else, from the Vatican is highly unlikely. On the other hand, as has been noted elsewhere in the thread, the international community is increasingly likely to make these individuals (including the Pope) subject to arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment (if convicted ) if they leave the physical confines of the Vatican.

It may not be the US who ultimately pursues these men; I think it is increasingly likely, however, that they will be pursued.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
I just want to note... (4.00 / 1)
...that you're so outraged by the bad acts of the Church and its Bishops that you want to find something, anything, to nail the Pope with.  Selecting the target first then finding the crime (and yes, this is what many of your comments have sounded like on this thread) sounds like the Ken Starr version of justice.

[ Parent ]
He didn't go looking... (0.00 / 0)
..., the story broke on its own.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
I know... (0.00 / 0)
...but there just seems to be a bit too much glee in his tone, again kind of like Clinton's enemies who found Lewinski and though (cue evil laugh), "We finally have him!"

[ Parent ]
Inconsistent (6.00 / 1)
You claim to want to have a discussion based on "a cool analysis of the facts, evidence, and applicability rather than an emotional response," and yet you admit here to not really responding to the facts, evidence, etc., presented because you don't care for the author's tone.  Seems to me that you would focus on the facts and evidence and ignore the tone if that were the case.  It appears, on this thread, at least, that you have assiduously ignored the facts, evidence, and applicability in favor of comments that address tone and emotion.  This is part of why I think some are frustrated with you.  Many here are justifiably angry with the behavior of the Catholic church and are horrified by the continued exploitation of children and coddling of pedophiles, but you seem to view this anger as an inappropriate ingredient of discussion.  Then, ironically enough, you bring your emotional distrust and impatience with atheists and church critics to the table as an appropriate defense for your comments.  So your emotional reactions to commenters who are critical of the church are justifiable in the context of your comments, but the emotional reactions of commenters who are crticial of the church are not?  

[ Parent ]
Documents (0.00 / 0)
This PDF purports to be a translation of the 1962 Office of the Sacred Congregation directive for dealing with priests and their accusers. In addition to repeated and comprehensive instructions that the accusations against a priest, the investigations, and the order itself must be kept completely secret, it includes the following language:
In every way the judge is to remember that it is never right for him to bind the accused by an oath to tell the truth.
So the Church judge is not even allowed to attempt to make the accused priest tell the truth. Great for discovering the truth.

Here is a 2001 order in Latin on the Vatican Website that sources say restates the 1962 order. My Latin is not adequate to translating it, and none of the online translators do much better. (Google and Babelfish don't do Latin.) It has Ratzinger's name at the bottom.  

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?


[ Parent ]
Are you just studiously ignoring all facts you don't like? (5.60 / 5)
The whole point here is that the newly revealed evidence out of Germany specifically implicates Cardinal Ratzinger in devising and enacting the church's strategy of denying that abuse was a problem, covering it up, paying off the victims, hiding and protecting the abusers, and letting them return to work, where they then abused more children.

And you're claiming that BrooklineTom's being angry about this invalidates his criticisms?  I mean, wow.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
In fairness (3.00 / 1)
Christopher may just not have read the discussion.  He does that a lot.

For me the issue is: is he personally attacking other BMGers. I don't think he is, here. He's just using the word "fag" in a way that is insulting to a whole group of people under the rubric of "discussing it." -- Bob Neer  

[ Parent ]
Not called for (0.00 / 0)
I've been following this very carefully and stand by my comments.

[ Parent ]
then I'm baffled (0.00 / 0)
You really do appear to be responding to some other conversation.  

For me the issue is: is he personally attacking other BMGers. I don't think he is, here. He's just using the word "fag" in a way that is insulting to a whole group of people under the rubric of "discussing it." -- Bob Neer  

[ Parent ]
It does seem to go back and forth a bit... (0.00 / 0)
...and I admit I might lose track somewhat when the thread starts getting long.  The initial diary and the first few comments seemed to be discussing the Pope's legal status both within the Church and with regards to international status.  The question seemed to be, the Pope royally goofed in his previous positions, possibly criminally - is there anything anyone can do about it?  I have argued that I'm not sure there really is much anybody can do about the Pope, but for those Bishops operating within various jurisdictions they can and should be prosecuted in accordance with the laws of those jurisdictions.  I did get the sense that a few commenters used this discussion as an opportunity to unload their frustrations and anger on the church in a way that got us away from the initial question.  These are frustrations that I largely share, but not completely relevant, regarding doctrinal issues such as opposition to abortion or birth control.

I don't understand how I earned this reputation with you, especially since we do often agree on many things.  I'm not going to claim I never misunderstand someone's comment, but I would appreciate it if something were re-explained rather than being dismissed as not paying attention.


[ Parent ]
"Royally GOOFED"? (0.00 / 0)
I find your attitude, as expressed here, insulting, contemptuous, and despicable.

You are responding to my comments, which you claim to have read. As I noted earlier, the topic of the conversation is Joseph Ratzinger's increasingly probable role as the organizer and leader of an international conspiracy to cover up, deny, and shield sex abuse on the part of thousands of priests and tens of thousands of adolescents. A topic that I did not raise, written and front-paged by one the three site co-owners, and posted in response to world-wide attention in the public mainstream press. You falsely compare me to Ken Starr, and then follow that with a comment that characterizes Joseph Ratzinger's behavior a "goof" ("possibly criminal")?

A possibly criminal "goof" is when a busy administrator forgets to withhold and pay the employer's share of payroll taxes on his or her household help.

These are major crimes. These are crimes that men and women kill each other about, that nations go to war about. Am I angry? You bet I am. I want to see secular authorities aggressively acting to protect adolescents from these predators — since it is so imminently clear that this institution is not only incapable of doing so, but instead has a long history of actively protecting and enabling them.

You have clearly chosen where your sympathies lie in this discussion. The insulting vocabulary you employ betrays your true feeling, and your attempts to feign "objectivity" or "neutrality" come across to me as outright intellectual dishonesty.

"Royally goofed"? What an appalling thing to say.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
I get the moral outrage, I really do... (0.00 / 0)
...but I cannot discuss very well if I have to look over my shoulder to see if someone is going to object to my precise vocabulary.  I suspect I mean "royal goof" as a weightier term than you are taking it to be.  At very least save your anger for the Church and it's leadership and kindly not take it out on me (e. g. the first and last lines of your above comment).  You want aggressive prosecutions?  Fine, I'm right there with you as long as we don't make it up as we go along and we get our individuals, the facts, and the law right.  That's all I'm asking and I was just trying to convey that I'm not sure even Germany can touch the Pope now that he is sovereign.  I also in no way want any of my comments construed to suggest that I am defending the sins of either commission or omission on the part of the Church.  I admit I do find it difficult and frustrating to discuss with you when you get yourself wound up.

[ Parent ]
Spare me (4.00 / 1)
You write "At very least save your anger for the Church and it's leadership and kindly not take it out on me."

Christopher, here are your words directed at me:

Selecting the target first then finding the crime (and yes, this is what many of your comments have sounded like on this thread) sounds like the Ken Starr version of justice.

Those are incendiary, aggressive, "fighting" words. I'm not objecting to your "precise vocabulary", I'm responding to the inflammatory and insulting attitude that a great many of your comments on this thread convey. You join jconway in your astonishing practice of throwing angry invective and then whining when it is answered in kind.

Several more pieces have been published in the mainstream press today that strengthen the perception that those of us calling for the aggressive prosecution of this criminal enterprise have, in fact, got our individuals, facts and law exactly right.

If you sincerely don't want your comments to be construed to suggest that you are defending the criminal acts (I could give a flying f**k about "sins") of the Catholic Church, then I strongly encourage you to pay a LOT more attention to your "precise vocabulary."

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
it's not about agreeing or disagreeing (0.00 / 0)
It's a fundamental expectation that responses should match up to arguments. Frequently yours don't.  When they do, I enjoy reading you.  When they don't it's frustrating.  I know I'm not the only one who's chided you for this.

In this discussion, you're clearly not following the thread you're replying on.  Your replies come across as ill-considered and more than a little condescending.  I'm almost certain you don't intend that.


For me the issue is: is he personally attacking other BMGers. I don't think he is, here. He's just using the word "fag" in a way that is insulting to a whole group of people under the rubric of "discussing it." -- Bob Neer  


[ Parent ]
No I certainly didn't intend it. (6.00 / 1)
Maybe the problem is I look at my comment page and click on the ones that have responses and respond directly to those without having the rest of the context in front of me - sorry.  I really have tried to keep my comments germane.

[ Parent ]
Perhaps you skimmed this part? (5.50 / 2)
I'll condense it a little for you:
This is what it looks like, the document of a conspiracy: 24 pages, with appendix, in Latin, published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Vatican. A "norma interna," or confidential set of guidelines for all bishops, who were required to keep it a secret for all eternity, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
. . .
Whenever rumors surfaced in Catholic schools, parishes, youth groups and children's homes, or victims overcame their shame and reported the abuse, the church would downplay the cases, characterizing them as isolated, regrettable exceptions or the misconduct of an errant priest. This was the position taken by the Vatican and by German bishops, who were unwilling to accept that the problem could lie in the system itself.


Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

[ Parent ]
Of course not (4.00 / 1)
I just like to:

A) Hear/read the other side of the story before passing judgement, and

B) Follow the law regarding consequences, criminality of the acts, jurisdiction, etc.


[ Parent ]
well... (0.00 / 0)
First I'm not buying that the Pope is directly responsible for molesting thousands of children.

After nearly thirty years, and stretching over more than thirty countries, it's clear that, as an institution the church is complicit and the pope, as the head of that church is likewise complicit.   The most generous view is that the pope(s) set the tone of secrecy and obfuscation, not to mention setting an adversarial stance with investigators, because they sincerely believed (against overwhelming evidence) that the problem was A) treatable and 2) contained to a small number of priests.  Their actions, however earnest they themselves took them to be, could not have been calculated better to maximize hurt had they actually set out to do so...

So, yes, the pope is not responsible for molesting thousands of boys (i.e., he did not molest them himself), but he is responsible for the molestation of thousands of children...   Simple organizational competence would, I daresay, have saved a good deal of crimes from occurring...



---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
I'm being straightforward (6.00 / 4)
The pope is like a supreme court justice...only the person in question can compel a resignation.  And since the pope's justification of power is his current interpretation of God's will, that means that he's not going anywhere.

There are legal mechanisms to harass world organizations such as you mention.  However, nothing any government could do the Catholic Church could be so damaging as what it's been doing to itself for the past decade-plus.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
His current interpretation (0.00 / 0)
It doesn't work exactly like that, though I appreciate your tone.  I think the issue to which you allude is that the pope is the sovereign, much as QEII is with respect to the UK, and arrest and prosecution are therefore complicated from a purely legal perspective.


[ Parent ]
Not really (0.00 / 0)
Arrest and prosecution are legally complex, not because he's a sovereign (Omar Bashir is subject to arrest in several countries).  However, I don't think Belgium or Spain will declare "universal jurisdiction" on him, a designation typically used for genocide.  For the same reason, I don't think The Hague is going to get involved.  

As for the Pope's "current interpretation of God's will", the pope can speak without restriction ex cathedra ("from the chair") during which he is infallible.  So if Benedict XVI declares that God has forgiven him ex cathedra, there is legally nothing that the membership of the Catholic Church can do.  

QEII is an interesting case.  She has lots of potential power (royal assent), and would probably lose it if she ever actually exercised it.  If the pope exercises his power, the Catholic hierarchy is not going to restrict him, since he's appointed all its members of note.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
"Take down" implies that the papacy is accountable to someone (0.00 / 0)
Which, unfortunately, I'm not sure is the case. Who would prosecute the pope? We'd have to invade the Vatican to arrest him.

I think "consent of the governed" (0.00 / 0)
starts to apply.  If he has lost the confidence of too much of his following and, perhaps more importantly, if other heads of state stop taking his calls, then he will be forced to step aside.  I doubt he'll ever be tried in any legal court, but as all of us in the blogosphere know, the court of public opinion can be powerful in its own way.

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[ Parent ]
The Vatican prides itself... (0.00 / 0)
...in NOT being swayed by public opinion.  I also doubt other heads of state will stop taking the calls of a fellow head of state.

[ Parent ]
It can pride itself all it wants, (3.67 / 3)
but if it wants to keep people coming through the doors and dropping $$$ in the basket, it may have to "lead by following" at some point.  I don't know if we've reached that point, but I suspect we're getting mighty close.  

Countries pressure each other or cut off direct contact all the time.  The Vatican is notorious for butting into the legislative process of other countries, USA included.  I don't know why the United States would put heavy pressure on Uganda to trash their gay genocide bill but not put pressure on the Vatican to stop harboring the ringleader of a child rapist ring.

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[ Parent ]
People withholding offerings is fine... (6.00 / 1)
...though I think most stays within the diocese or archdiocese.  For the US to intervene in a church's choice of leadership gets quite dicey, though part of the church's role is to be a prophetic voice on policy, something my own denomination does all the time.  I've never been comfortable with our manipulating who gets chosen leader of other countries either.

[ Parent ]
Evidence? (2.00 / 4)
There is enough evidence to connect you to heading a child rapist ring as there is to connecting the Holy Father to one. By the one the College of Cardinals and the clergy and laity are all part of the Body of Christ on Earth. To those that believe we would not want to be called a 'ring of child rapists' thank you.


[ Parent ]
your blind defense of child rapists (1.50 / 4)
does make me wonder about your own history.

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[ Parent ]
When have I defended child rapists? (0.00 / 0)
And how dare you imply I'm one!  

[ Parent ]
Ah, so you don't like it either? (6.00 / 3)
You did the same to me above.  There is mounting evidence that the pope enabled child rapists and abusers.  You said there was as much evidence about me as about him, therefore you accused me of being a child rapist.  Glad to hear you don't care for that accusation any more than I do.

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[ Parent ]
$$$ (5.00 / 1)
if the $$$ stops pouring in, you better believe the Vatican will be swayed by public opinion.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
Hmm (5.00 / 1)
I don't think I want other countries bullying my religion, I would argue that in a rational, liberal, intelligent person like yourself would find this a bit extreme dont you think?

Also there is no consent of the governed since the Catholic church is a wonderfully un-democratic organization, which is why it has been able to maintain its orthodoxy unlike our Protestant brothers and sisters.  


[ Parent ]
A lesson for us in power. (0.00 / 1)
Certainly the Roman Church isn't alone in this.  History gives examples from at least Biblical and Roman times.  Power over people leads to the most base corruptions.  Our own elected have shown us many times.  

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."  - Abraham Lincoln  


[ Parent ]
Oh, please (5.50 / 4)
You've spammed us with a site hawking a sensationalist treatment of allegations that were investigated nearly two decades ago and found to be utterly without foundation ("elaborate hoax" is the phrase that investigators used). Are you aware that this appears to be more LaRouchian nonsense? Your attempt to compare this to the clergy sex scandal insultingly trivializes the latter — especially its victims.

In Massachusetts alone, hundreds of priests abused "probably more than a thousand" teenagers over a span of decades (source). Massachusetts was just one state, and more recently we learn that similar institutional coverups appear to have been orchestrated in Ireland, Germany, Austria, and elsewhere.

Now it seems increasingly evident that the conspiracy to shield, protect, and enable ordained sex abusers extends to the Pope himself (not to mention his brother). Joseph Ratzinger was in charge of the Vatican's handling of the unfolding clergy sex abuse scandal when Bernard Law resigned in 2002. It seems clear enough to me that Joseph Ratzinger was protecting himself and his brother when he rescued Bernard Law from US authorities. Are we to believe that the College of Cardinals was unaware of all this when Joseph Ratzinger was elevated to Pope?

I hope that these men find themselves exiled in the Vatican — unable to travel outside its boundaries because they face certain prosecution and (probably) imprisonment for the staggering number of young lives they conspired to destroy.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Change is a coming (0.00 / 0)
My 0 was for the second half, the sensational accusation that Benedict and his brother both sheltered Cardinal Law and somehow covered up ALL of the abuses in the Church. Where are your links to back up this sensational charge? Suffice to say that needs work i.e research and corroboration to back it up.

That said I changed it to a 4 since I liked the first half condemning the LaRochian idiots that have infected this board. At least we can agree on that  


[ Parent ]
What's going on, jconway? (0.00 / 0)
What are so pissed about? These seem to be mostly valid criticisms of the Vatican vis a vis the child molestation scandal.

Reluctantly I reply (3.75 / 4)
Well I gave up blogging for Lent but feel the Lord will forgive me for this one breach to defend his Church.

Up thread we have seen incredibly offensive calls for the Pope's head, comparing Catholics to feudal peasants, calling the Church 'un-Christian' because it opposes federal funds for abortion in health care reform (would Jesus really want the federal government to fund abortion? but I digress), and the worst one by the usually restrained sabutai comparing Benedict to the murderous thug the Ayatollah.

Had those derogatory comments been made about the Dali Lama or a Jewish leader, or even Billy Graham I am sure people would have been appalled and offended but since they were made about the Pope it is okay. One suspects by the comments that many Pope's were burned this past Nov. 5th by the majority of the commentators. I do not find anti-Catholic bigotry justified in response to the clergy sex abuse scandals. I hate Cardinal Law as much as anyone else does, in fact he was part of the reason I left the Church until college (some of you may remember I considered myself a Methodist as late as 2006). But after much soul searching I concluded that the Church still spoke to me and that much like the excesses of Alexander VI did not justify Luther's reformation, the evil's of one cardinal cannot taint the whole Church.

The Holy Father has been cooperating with all civil authorities in Germany, they have been turning over the names of corrupt priests and bishops who either abused or helped cover up the abuse of children. Additionally much like Benedict had the courage to meet with sex abuse advocacy groups in the US even though it was not scheduled and even though these groups have consistently attacked his papacy for a variety of unrelated reasons, he will also be meeting with similar groups in Germany and one can soon guess that the Church will have to make generous civil settlements which I am sure it will not fight. Yet in spite of all this Catholics who dislike Benedict over the completely unrelated issues of abortion and gay rights are calling for his head, non-Catholics are using this as an opportunity to take a few convenient swipes at the Church, and of course the so called Democrats on this board have decided to take up rhetorical arms against only the largest and most historically important constituency of the Democratic party.

I am not saying Benedict is entirely innocent either, I am simply saying that if people on this site afforded John Edwards and Elliot Spitzer the benefit of the doubt before all the evidence pointed to their corruption I do not see why they can't do the same to a public figure who has done so much more good for Catholics and non-Catholics alike all over the world. While JPII was more popular I would argue that Benedict has done far more in terms of ecumenical relations, especially with Jews and the Muslims, in establishing real relations. He has done far more to reunify Orthodox and Roman Catholics, far more to reunify Anlicans and Catholics, and far more to oppose the universal threat that unbridled materialism has to our values, our planet, and people around the world. Benedict is probably the strongest moral voice against free market capitalism and for that reason should be hailed by the left, but instead because the left abhors religion he is mocked and villified.

Let the evidence come forward. If Benedict was at all involved in covering up abuses, or even worse abusing himself, the College of Cardinals will surely implement the rarely invoked articles of papal impeachment. Benedict will surely abdicate rather than go through that indignity. So far the evidence points to him using poor judgment in just one case by allowing the housing of one priest accused of abuse undergoing therapy in his diocese. The accusations were never corroborated and the priest eventually left the church on his own accord. If hearsay cannot damn someone to civil authorities it certainly should not damn someone in ecclesiastical circles either. If Benedict can be accused of anything it was being too forgiving and exercising poor judgment, which he has admitted to and apologized for.

So until the evidence emerges that Benedict directly covered up abuses as either Bishop, Cardinal, or Pope I think we should end the sensationalistic headline of that David propagated, and certainly end the rhetoric of hatred and bigotry so many have espoused on this thread.

So far I praise the Pope, who unlike the American cardinals that dismissed the abuse scandal initially as an attack on the church, as stated unequivocally that the abuse of children has no place in Germany, in the Church, or around the world. That priests are called to serve and any priest who engages in this activity is violating that sacred trust and will be turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution. That is a clear call to cleansing the church of any abusers compared to the sounds of denials and contortions that Cardinal Law made on the witness stand so many years ago. And especially as a Boston cradle Catholic who was about the same age as many of the young men abused when the scandal emerged, it is a most welcome change.


[ Parent ]
0's are quite drastic (6.00 / 1)
And I reserve them for truly bigoted comments. I didn't see anything like that above. But hey, do as thou wilst.

[ Parent ]
Hmm (3.00 / 1)
You don't think calling the entire Catholic Church a gang of child rapists is bigoted? You don't think comparing the Holy Father to the Ayatollah is bigoted? You don't think saying all priests hate women, fear sex, and are pedophiles is bigoted?

[ Parent ]
Good for you for sticking up for your beliefs! (5.33 / 3)
I've been around long enough to know that no religion, no political party or system, no ethnic group, even no two married people have a monopoly on evil or stupidity.  You are right: some of the comments here have been a bit much.

[ Parent ]
Seriously? (6.00 / 4)
Voting to delete every comment critical of the Catholic Church is "sticking up for his beliefs"?  Really?

Where I come from, we figure any institution that can't stand up to some scrutiny doesn't deserve anyone's faith.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Note that I was responding to his written statement, not to his ratings. (0.00 / 0)
Where the hell do you come from by the way?

[ Parent ]
His written statement was (purportedly, if not substantively) a defense of his ratings (6.00 / 1)
In point of fact I'm originally from Cape Cod.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
He may be that guy (3.50 / 2)
who wrote a letter to the Globe accusing it of "Catholic bashing" every time there was anything in the paper that was remotely critical of anything having to do with the RCC. You know what I mean. That he still defends the institution in the face of evidence that child abuse is rampant in the Church is all you need to know. His abusing the ratings system is just more evidence that he has no objectivity on the subject.

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

[ Parent ]
Listen bud (6.00 / 1)
I have never written to the Globe, although it does engage in Catholic bashing from time to time, and has done so since its early history bashing the 'hibernian hordes taking us to Rome'. it is incredibly sad that so many of you sound exactly as those same bigots that would deny my ancestors civil rights in this country and nearly prevented the first of my kind from ascending to the Presidency, a man many of you revere for his progressive policies. What I am arguing is two fold: first that the abuse scandal is horrible, and Catholics are arguably the most affected by it compared to the laity, and as a Catholic raised in Boston I have been more affected that most of you.

My grandfather was nearly molested back in the day, my brother had friends that were molested, and I left the Church for a time because of the way Cardinal Law responded to the scandals. In no way am I defending Cardinal Law, or any of the bishops that have covered up sex abuse. I am defending the Pope for two reasons. First because I believe in the American concept of innocence until guilt is proven. Thus far there has only been one incident where the Pope housed someone in his diocese who was accused of sexual impropriety. So far it has not been substantiated if that impropriety was against children, how long the priest was housed, and whether or not housing the priest violated German law at the time. Frankly at that time pedophilia was considered a treatable disorder in the psychiatric community, much like homosexuality was, and the Church at that time responded to sexual impropriety by counseling the priests. Now thanks to Benedict the Church has a zero tolerance policy, one that many have condemned Benedict for, but it screens potential priests to make sure they are not pedophiles, kicks pedophiles, homosexuals, and active heterosexuals out of the priesthood instead of counseling them. A policy some have condemned as un-compassionate but one that certainly ensures that no sexual impropriety of any sort can continue by priests. Secondly I am defending the Pope and the Church against broader anti-Catholic bigotry expressed on this site. Sentiments such as 'all priests fear sex, hate women, and engage in pedophilia' and accusations that the Church is a massive child rapist ring are completely bigoted statements that ought to be removed. Were such statements made about Jews I am sure the offenders would be permanently banned. But the Catholic church as the largest, oldest, and most orthodox Christian body is constantly under assault and is an easy target.

The second, solid tangible evidence emerges that Benedict engaged in systematic cover ups, criminal conspiracies, and other Cardinal Law esque acts of corruption and criminal complacency then I will be the first and loudest Catholic to call for a Papal Impeachment and a new College of Cardinals to elect an untainted Pope. I will also hope and pray that the Vatican allows the Pope to be extradicted to be prosecuted IF SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE EMERGES. Until that date I think calls for such drastic action are premature and are motivated by hatred of Benedict because he is religious, socially conservative, etc. and are unrelated to any genuine concern for the children abused. people on this thread have used this scandal as an excuse to make incredibly bold and unsubstantiated assaults against the Church.


[ Parent ]
It was systemic corruption, jconway (6.00 / 1)
You treat this as if it was just all Cardinal Law's fault -- in this reply and even more so in others in this thread. It wasn't. This was a systemic, macro problem. It happened all across America and, indeed, at the very least on a systemic level through much of Europe. There's a whole bevy of cases of the Catholic church and police working to cover up tons of cases in Ireland. There's been scandals erupting in Germany, Austria. The thing's wide-spread and touches not only the Pope, but his brother.

The Church is not being persecuted, your victimhood is of a faux quality. The days of catholics being fed to the lions have been over for roughly 1500 years. Any anger directed at it is purely of its own doing. The damage done to it was also done by it, by protecting its priests instead of its children, and by driving so many of its members away through its hostile intolerance of others. If its members, who are not to blame, want this to stop, they have to force their church leaders to change.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
And Nova Scotia, Canada (6.00 / 1)
It is hard to keep track, I understand.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
And Nova Scotia, Canada (0.00 / 0)
It is hard to keep track, I understand.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
He's never defended the actions being discussed here. (5.50 / 4)
Of course you can defend an institution even in the face of bad acts.  For example the US is my home and I am a proud patriotic American.  There is plenty about this country I love and will defend for all the good we have done in the world.  Doesn't mean I approve of African-American slavery, forced removal of our native population, or put Japanese-descended west coast residents in detention camps, or even more modern acts such as torture in the war on terror.

[ Parent ]
Thank you again (6.00 / 1)
As to Kirth it is hard for me to be objective when it is MY church we are talking about and MY friends and family who have been subject to abuse or potential abuse. I remember when I was in the 7th grade and spent two hours after school with a priest learning how to be a lector and the motions of the liturgy and I, my parents, and my friends thought nothing of it. The next year when I was invited to a spiritual retreat out in the woods as part of confirmation that was to be headed by that same priest my parents warned me not to go and my friends mocked me for thinking about going. What changed?

The Boston sex abuse crisis burst onto the front pages, into the national conscious, and into stand up's punchlines all over the country. My mother lost her faith in the Church for a second time, and I continued my road to agnosticism, which later led me back to Christianity and eventually back to the Church. But it was a long journey, incidentally I still have yet to be confirmed. So believe me, this has been an incredibly sad and painful process for all Catholics, my heart goes out to the Catholics who lost the faith because of this and still have not been to Church. It goes out to all the parishes and churches that have had to close because the Church indebted itself by paying back the victims, it goes out to Cardinal Sean who had to clean up the horrible mess his corrupt predecessor lead behind, and to Benedict who had to do the same, since while everyone loved JPII, his sense of forgiveness and compassion extended to those that should not have been sheltered, especially Cardinal Law.

This scandal rocked the Church in America to the core, it has not recovered in Boston (it may never recover) and it has only begun to recover elsewhere in the country.

Sadly it has now struck Germany which was beginning to have a renaissance of Catholic faith due to the Pope's German heritage and outreach to the European faithful. Believe me those setbacks are tangible and real and I am not denying them. And frankly in many cases where dioceses engaged in whole sale cover-ups it is easy to see why some can say it is deserved. What I am in fact denying is the pretense that many on this site have that the Pope is somehow responsible for this behavior and condoned it, when all evidence has so far pointed to the contrary. I am denying the more outright statements of ignorance and bigotry, statements like 'all priests hate women and fear sex', 'most priests are closeted homosexuals thrust into pedophilia', 'the Pope is just as bad as the Ayatollah;, 'the Church is running a Child rapist ring'. Etc. That is what is so tragic, that a Church that has done so many good things for the world, that is in fact the main contributor and actor in the aid to Haiti, that runs the largest adoption agency in the country, that runs the largest system of charity hospitals, that is the only voice standing up for both universal health care and a culture that respects life, is to be vilified and demonized because of the actions of a few bad people. And there was a time when I had that same hatred in my heart, because the betrayal felt so personal, how could they do that to us their loyal laity? Yet one should judge the whole Church and not just the actions of a few corrupt members. The many faithful laity and clergy should not be punished for the acts of the cowardly few.


[ Parent ]
"all evidence points to the contrary." (6.00 / 1)
Except the priest that molested children, who the Pope sent to therapy, who later went and molested more children.

If you want to make an argument, at least make one that isn't directly contradicted by the very diary David wrote to begin with.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
BTW (0.00 / 0)
That priest who Ratzinger let go, get therapy, return to duty and be a priest again, only to molest more children, is not -- as you've claimed on this thread -- out of the church. He's still a priest and in employ of the RCC. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...

The cleric went on to reoffend and was convicted of child abuse but continues to work as a priest in Upper Bavaria.



---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
You DO have the ability to change your ratings, you know (6.00 / 1)
Are at all aware of Joseph Ratzinger's history before he was elevated to Pope? You write "If Benedict can be accused of anything it was being too forgiving and exercising poor judgment" — Joseph Ratzinger being "too forgiving"? I'll grant you the "exercising poor judgement", but there is zero evidence in his lengthy career as head of the Inquisition (that's original name of the office he held and aggressively executed) that he was ever "forgiving."

The evidence of the complicity of Joseph and Georg Ratzinger in shuffling accused and, in some cases convicted sex abusers from parish to parish is emerging every day. It is emerging from Ireland, from Austria, and from Germany. The pattern is the same as the pattern we saw in Massachusetts. Sadly, the knee-jerk accusations of anti-Catholic bias such as you make here are also quite familiar.

If you want to leave your "zeros" as they are, by all means do so. I don't know about anyone else here, but I interpret them as demonstrating that you know as well as I that (a) there is far more substance to these allegations than you admit, and (b) the fact that he has been elevated to Pope casts a very dark shadow on the entire institution.

I appreciate that you love the Church you have been raised with. I hope you appreciate that if damage is being done to that Church, it is being done by those who, like Joseph Ratzinger, committed and who cover up these horrific crimes — not by those who, like me, speak out against them.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Ratings and Brookline (4.00 / 2)
I think comparing the Pope, a spiritual leader who has killed no one, supports democracy, and is fighting for social justice to a leader like the Ayatollah who opposes democracy and freedom and has ordered the mass detention and arrests of his opponents merits a 0. I think saying that the Pope and ALL clergy of the Vatican need to be restricted to that city or arrested if they leave it and be prosecuted merits a 0. I think saying the Catholic church is morally bankrupt because it opposes health care reform that funds abortions merits a 0. I think saying that Catholics are essentially feudal and peasant merits a 0. I think saying that the Pope is about to be taken down is a bit sensationalistic and is the kind of headline that encourages dumb comments rather than constructive ones. I'll concede most of these statements are from ignorance and not true bigotry, but ignorance can easily lead to and breed bigotry.

As for your specific comments Brookline, thus far I have seen only one instance of Benedict being complicit in 'covering up' for sex abuse, and that was simply allowing an accused priest to be housed and sheltered at a facility in his diocese that gave him therapy. Now understandably anyone accused of abusing children should be brought immediately to the civil authorities, but the Church, a body dedicated to saving souls, changing behavior, viewed it as simply a manner of restoring the priests chastity through spiritual therapy. A stance that has since been uniformly rejected by all the Church including the Pope who regretted his approval over 30 years ago. Certainly poor judgment but not Cardinal Law levels of cover up, conspiracy, and criminal complicity-intentional complicity at that. This is the only instance reported so far in the mainstream media, in fact if you have read biographies of Benedict both authorized and unauthorized he had a record as being a hardliner against abuse in 2002 and was very thorough in his investigations and always turned over people to the civil authorities. Thats the key. Benedict made a big change from JPII where these things were handled internally to recognizing child abuse is in fact a horrible and heinous civil crime that only police and not priests should be concerned with.

The fact that he headed what 'used to be the Inquisition' is further ignorance of Catholic history. The Congregation for Defense of the Faith was an office within the Church, kind of like a police departments internal affairs bureau, to ensure that all priests were acting in accordance with their vows  and with the dogma of the Catholic church. So priests that were pedophiles to priests distributing pizza instead of wafers at communion fell under that jurisdiction. It was not like the Spanish Inquisition which was a government sponsored ethnic cleansing of Jews and Muslims from Spain that was condemned by both the contemporary Church at the time and the modern Church since. The Congregation for the Defense of the Faith is directly descended from the Italian inquisition which was mainly directed at the Cathars, Savignarola, and other heretics within Italy-in other words an internal effort to make sure priests conformed to Catholic doctrine.

Perhaps I was a bit far to call these statements bigoted, but they are certainly ignorant. Educated people like yourselves would not consider Jack Bauer an accurate authority on Islam so why is Dan Brown suddenly an authority on Catholicism?


[ Parent ]
Fixed that for you. (6.00 / 3)
the Pope, a spiritual leader who has killed no one, supports democracy, and is fighting for social justice except for women and LGBTQI people

Also,
So priests that were pedophiles to priests distributing pizza instead of wafers at communion fell under that jurisdiction.

Way to trivialize sexual abuse of children!

(By the way, so far as I can tell you're the first one to cite Dan Brown in this discussion.)

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
my lord (6.00 / 1)
I am not trivializing sex abuse!

BrooklineTom made claims that Ratzinger was head of the inquisition falsely linking it to the spanish inquisition, much like Dan Brown did when a character said the church killed 'millions' in the middle ages.

Instead I said Ratzinger was head of the Congregation for Defense of the Doctrine of the Faith which concerned itself BOTH with investigating sex abuse AND investigating abuses of the liturgy such as the pizza communion, since it investigated the wholesale disavowal of vows by priests. A priest that is nice, wholesome, and doesn't touch children is still in violation of his vows if he has a consenting relationship with an adult, if he engages in heresies like a pizza communion or denouncing aspects of the faith, or embezzling money, etc.. The organization Ratzinger headed investigates all claims against priests from the serious to what outsiders might consider trivial. In this way my analogy to an internal affairs department within a police department made sense. They investigate serious crimes like police engaging in drug trafficking to minor ones like police that sleep on the job.  


[ Parent ]
I do think the zeros are a little extreme. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Why? (3.00 / 2)
In every case a zero was made it was made in regard to a statement that was bigoted against Catholics, Catholic leaders, or the Holy Father. Replace the phrase 'priest/Catholic/pope' in any of those statements with the phrase 'black, gay, or jew' and they sound bigoted.

They are statements that rely on generalizations, sterotypes, and misconceptions and statements that were never backed up with fact. I am sorry comparing the Pope to the ayatollah, saying Catholics are part of a child rapist ring, and saying all priests, ALL priests, hate women and fear sex. Those are vitriolic statements that have no place on this thread and violate the terms of use and ground rules everyone is supposed to abide by. Frankly I am considering leaving Bluemassgroup if the editors do not take action, since I am incredibly offended and am made uncomfortable by those specific statements and were they made against a racial or religious minority action would have definitely been taken by now. They are hateful and I continue to be bullied for my faith. Something distinctly undemocratic and illiberal if you ask me. Not to mention un-american.


[ Parent ]
You'd better get used to it (6.00 / 3)
If you think my reaction here is harsh, you're going to face a very difficult immediate future as the truth about what happened becomes more widely known.

Meanwhile, this statement of yours — "saying all priests, ALL priests, hate women and fear sex" — is an outright lie.

Here is the paragraph of mine that you are lying about:

We are talking about an institution whose politics, practices, and policies make it a magnet for conflicted homosexual men who hate women and fear sex. The abuse of adolescent boys by Catholic clergy is endemic because the culture disproportionally selects from a population predisposed to such behavior.

The phrase "disproportionally selects" does not mean "all" in anybody's universe, except perhaps your own.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Parsing (5.00 / 2)
"disproportionally selects" still means that in your view the majority of priests hate women and fear sex. This is complete and utter bullshit that goes unsubstantiated. Furthermore it is completely contradicted by the fact that the Vatican is now very publicly screening future priests to ensure that no homosexuals, pedophiles, or continually sexually active heterosexuals enter the priesthood. Outside psychologists have shown there is no link between celibacy and pedophilia and the mountain of sex abuse cases in Jewish, Protestant, and Muslim denominations should show you that celibacy alone is not a factor. Independent studies by outside groups have shown that the main factors behind the Catholic abuse scandal had nothing to do with celibacy. Additionally the Jewish community has had a massive abuse scandal as well and rabbis are not celibate, in fact most of the abusers were married rabbis. The Southern Baptists have had a predator problem as well.

Lastly a few important soundbites from another third party study

However, although good data is hard to acquire, it appears that this 2 to 5% figure is consistent with male clergy from other religious traditions and is lower than the general adult male population that is best estimated to be closer to 8%. Therefore, the odds that any random Catholic priest would sexually abuse a minor are not likely to be significantly higher than other males in or out of the clergy. Of course we expect better behavior from priests than from the average man on the street. While even one priest who abuses children is a major problem, we need to keep this issue in perspective and remember that the vast majority of priests do not abuse children.

Second, 80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young alter boy or girls of any age. Technically, the vast majority of priest sex offenders are not pedophiles at all but are ephebophiles. This may seem like an irrelevant semantic difference but the implications for prevention and treatment are enormous. Furthermore, this suggests that parents of teenage boys should be more concerned about sexual abuse by priests than parents of girls or prepubescent children of either gender.

Third, the vast majority of priests who sexually abuse minors commit their first offense about a year after ordination. Therefore, one can only assess risk factors for this behavior when evaluating potential applicants to the priesthood. These include being sexually abused themselves as a child or adolescent, social isolation and poor social skills, impulse control problems in general, psychiatric co-morbidity with disorders such as substance abuse, mood and/or personality disorders, and brain damage. However, you cannot screen out men who abuse children unless they have already committed the offense. The vast majority of clergy sex offenders have committed no crime until they complete their seminary training and are ordained.

Fourth, allowing priests to marry will not eliminate this problem. As mentioned earlier, male clergy from other religious traditions also have this problem as well as people who are not clergy at all. Many people who sexually abuse minors are married. Besides, if you could not have sex due to marital discord, the inability to find an appropriate partner, or other reasons, young children would not become the primary object of your desire. Consenting adults would.

Fifth, a high proportion of homosexual priests do not increase the risks of sexual abuse of minors by priests. Sexual orientation does not predict illegal sexual abuse of children and minors in general. Homosexual men are not more likely to engage in illegal sexual behaviors with children and adolescents than heterosexual men.

So those facts disprove several of the generalities and sterotypes you have perpetuated. Married clergy are just as likely to commit offenses. Non Catholic clergy are just as likely. Non clergy are MORE likely to commit offenses than Catholic clergy. Screening in the beginning before ordination as the Vatican is doing is the best defense. Most of the abusers were abused themselves thus, ending the cycle of abuse now is the best key to preventing it in the future, as well as treating the victims AND the perpetrators which the Church is incredibly active in doing. The biggest single mistake the Church hierarchy made was treating this as an insular problem and acting out of compassion to the priests who committed the abuse by being too forgiving and giving them second chances (which mostly resulted in them abusing again), and committing them to broad sex therapy groups that did not specifically address their disorders. Again just check the facts.

And as soon as you have proof that the Pope actively encouraged or covered up abuses himself then by all means attack him as a horrible monster, because he would be one. So far I have heard of one reported case where then Raztinger approved of a priest being housed in his diocese, the bishop that knew that priest was an abuser and allowed him to continue was a successor to Ratzinger and had nothing to do with the Holy Father. That Bishop is currently being punished by the Church and being handed over to civil authorities for questioning. A key difference between the reaction of Benedict and the reaction of Cardinal Law is that he immediately condemned the abuse, immediately promised to open up the books and cooperate with civil authorities and offered no shelter to priests that abused children while offering shelter, treatment, and settlements to those children that were abused. He considers this a great stain on the church even though these cases are remarkably isolated when compared to the church as a whole, and he wants to purify the church of this stain. That is a sea change from the reaction of Cardinal Law and even JPII. And it is a change advocates of children Catholic and non-Catholic alike should applaud rather than mock and condemn with innuendo and unsubstantiated generalizations.


[ Parent ]
What? (5.00 / 3)
"disproportionally selects" still means that in your view the majority of priests hate women and fear sex.

I can't say for certain what BrooklineTom's true views are, not being him, but in no way does "disproportionate" necessarily imply "majority."

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Hmm (4.00 / 2)
Does it not imply more often than not? Or far too often? In any case the data has shown that within the number of clergy who have engaged in sexual acts with a minor (consensual AND otherwise) is only around 2%, clearly a drop in the bucket when compared to the rest of the priesthood and with the rates of the non-clerical male population (at 8%). I mean that by the way without any insensitivity to the victims, certainly 2% is still far from desirable and considering the scope and size of the Catholic clergy still means hundreds if not thousands of victims. That is a tragedy I do not wish to downplay. That said the fact is that there is no proof that this trend is disproportionate to Catholic clergy, in fact the data seems to suggest otherwise-that Catholic clergy are less likely overall than the entire male population to engage in these actions.

So why does the Church get such a high profile? As Fr. James Martin has written, a lot of this attention is because outsiders find the Church mysterious and think the celibacy rule is a quaint feature that means these men have to be dysfunctional in some way-clearly this is what BrooklineTom implies. Yet I know plenty of celibate people in and outside of the priesthood that are completely happy and not inclined towards abuse whatsoever and a few of them are women and a few are not even religious. So BrooklineToms claims are quite bogus on a variety of fronts.


[ Parent ]
Strictly speaking... (6.00 / 2)
... it means 'more often than would otherwise be', not 'more often than not', which would be more accurately expressed as 'usually' as opposed to 'disproportionately'.

That said the fact is that there is no proof that this trend is disproportionate to Catholic clergy, in fact the data seems to suggest otherwise-that Catholic clergy are less likely overall than the entire male population to engage in these actions.

I'm seeing a lot of claims without a lot of data or cites about what is or isn't disproportionate.  Neither point is really relevant for the Church's institutional scandal, which was the cover-up.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)


[ Parent ]
Motivation for the coverup (0.00 / 0)
I suggest that a significant motivation for the coverup is the recognition (probably implicit) on the part of Catholic authorities that deeply-rooted institutional policy (non-ordination of women, priestly celibacy, etc.) is likely to be causal. The implication is that it will be very hard to actually solve the problem without changing the institutional factors that cause it. Hence there is very strong motivation to cover up evidence of the symptoms.

Clergy sex abuse is, sadly, not unique to the Catholic church. The breath-taking extent, in both scope and authority, of the coverup is unique to the Catholic church. I suggest that the evidence points to causal and systemic factors, and will not easily go away.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
You could just as easily have picked up a dictionary (5.00 / 3)
but I'll help you out.  "Disproportionate" means "out of proportion."  Thus to say that a particular institution disproportionately attracts a particular kind of person is merely to claim that the percentage of members of the institution who are that kind of person is higher (perhaps much higher, perhaps only a little higher) than the percentage of the general population.  So, BrooklineTom is saying that the percentage of the Catholic priesthood who hate women and fear sex is higher than the percentage of the general population who do.  I don't know whether it's true or not - it seems plausible but hard to measure - but you do yourself no favors by pretending he made a claim he didn't.

A couple of other points.

number of clergy who have engaged in sexual acts with a minor (consensual AND otherwise)

This is a pretty disturbing thing to say.  A minor by definition cannot consent to sexual acts with an adult.  But by citing this 2% number (though you don't provide a source for it) you're again putting words in BrooklineTom's mouth: he said particular attitudes were disproportionately prevalent among the Catholic priesthood, not particular crimes.

I think the claim that child rapists in the Church get more news attention than child rapists who aren't priests "because outsiders find the Church mysterious" is patently absurd.  These scandals have gotten a lot of attention because 1) the Church has always explicitly promoted itself and its clergy as being safe, trustworthy, loving people who would never harm anyone, especially children; 2) countless people believed that and trusted clergy with their children; 3) the Church is well document to have, after betraying that trust, covered up the scandals, tried to pay off the victims, and protected the rapists.
No condescending, self-important nonsense about the poor simple plebs just not understanding the Church's grand complexity is necessary to explain the extent of the media coverage.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
It also gets higher profile... (0.00 / 0)
...because priests are and should be held to a higher standard of trust and morality.  Also, the scandal aspect of it WAS exaserbated by prelates such as Cardinal Law who tried to sweep this under the rug.

[ Parent ]
You're out of control and irrational (0.00 / 0)
You wrote:
"disproportionally selects" still means that in your view the majority of priests hate women and fear sex.

The phrase "disproportionally selects" has a very specific meaning. Suppose a given trait has a certain frequency in a given population ("12% of college students wear plaid shirts") and is randomly distributed within that population. When a subset of that population is selected at random, then the given trait should also appear at the same rate in the subset. If the measured frequency in the subset is higher than the original population ("32% of engineering students wear plaid shirts"), then the process by which the subset was created "disproportionally selects" for the given trait.

I meant exactly what I wrote — if the frequency of misogynist men who fear sex is 1.2% of the general population and 6.0% of priests, then the discernment process disproportionally selects for misogyny and fear of sex. Given this data (I chose the numbers arbitrarily), it would be entirely accurate to say "priests are five times more likely to be misogynist and fearful of sex than the general population". Note that 6.0% is still a very small minority of priests.

Not the "majority". Not "all". Simply more than the general population. I suggest that there is an abundance of data to support this claim regarding the Catholic church.

I know you find this hard to believe, but I really do know more about what I mean than you, I am not generally shy about saying what I mean, and I'm reasonably able to put meanings into words.

You are filling this thread with harsh (and false) invective personally directed at me, and you have the audacity to suggest my comments should be suppressed (not to mention your simultaneous ratings abuse)?

I suggest you take a breather.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
If jconway's 8%>2% claim is accurate (0.00 / 0)
Then it seems like Catholic priests are 75% less likely to be child molesters than the average male, right?

[ Parent ]
Sir (0.00 / 0)
Even speaking of disproportionately is a waste of time until you use anything resembling even a modicum of real evidence rather than the anecdotal evidence on which you rely. I have linked to several studies that have demonstrated the statistics on this phenomenon and have actual statistics backing me up. What do you have beyond your repeat insistence that disproportionate numbers of priests hate women and fear sex? Have you interviewed priests and come to this conclusion is there a secret memo only you have had access too from the Holy father himself instructing new priests to hate women and fear sex? Where does this ridiculous assertion come from besides your own imagination? Besides saying that they are celibate what other inference leads you to this conclusion?

[ Parent ]
8% of adult males (0.00 / 0)
have had sex with a minor? I don't see where your study substantiates that - he just says it "is best estimated to be closer to 8%." Does that number include men who had such an experience when they were themselves minors? Does the number for priests include them? Without support, the 8% number is an assertion, not a fact.

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

[ Parent ]
Yeah, that's fishy. (0.00 / 0)
Dr. David Lisak at UMass Boston studies the psychology of rape and sexual violence, and has published some excellent (both links to PDFs) material on the subject.  In particular, a compilation of surveys where men were asked questions about behavior (in descriptive terms: "have you done X?" rather than "have you rpaed someone?") suggests that the number of men who repeatedly commit rape/sexual assault is between about 5% and 15% of the overall male US population.  The 8% number would fit with that if Plante were talking about sexual assault in general, but without any support it's pretty questionable that that many have raped children.

I also note that the source jconway cites says "2 to 5%" of priests, yet jconway himself keeps only saying 2% - that's pretty intellectually dishonest, I think.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Oh, please (5.00 / 2)
You are the only person on this thread who has failed to use facts.

Furthermore, by all means, don't let the lack of action by David, Bob and Charley prevent you from leaving. It was, after all, your mission for lent not to post. LOL.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
the bill does not fund abortion (0.00 / 0)
if you are going to come onto this blog and exercise your faith blindly, you will be called, continually, on your repeated falsehoods, by me and others. Brookline Tom's corrections, it should be noted, are indeed correct -- the Church's push for social justice has been limited not only by its push for rabid hotbotton issues, but just who the church thinks deserves that social justice. A social justice that is so limited in scope is faux-social justice.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
A zero in kind -- and for completely distorting my metaphor (0.00 / 0)
comparing Catholics to feudal peasants

Actually, I said they weren't bound to the land. Either you have no grasp in the history of the feudal system... or you're completely and offensively distorting what I said. Catholics are not bound to their "king." I left the church as have millions of others over the past decade, many of whom are gone specifically because of their seemingly institution-wide decision to cover-up and therefore propagate child molestation and rape.

I was raised and confirmed Catholic. It was hard for me to get to this point, but the facts are the facts. It was more important to the Catholic Church to cover-up and keep their child-raping priests than to give them to the authorities so justice could prevail. Consequently, thousands and thousands of children have been molested and raped by priests since. This happened on a macro scale, all over the United States and Europe -- at the least. It is hard to understand that and accept that, so I completely understand why you've lashed out, distorted what others have said to suit your own opinions and zero-dropped in this thread -- but rest assured, the rest of the church is quickly catching onto the Catholic Church, no matter the bullying tactics of its last, few remaining members.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
Fine (0.00 / 0)
It is sad that one incident that did not directly affect you forced you to leave the Church but I know many who left because of far more trivial reasons so I will not question your judgment. I left myself for these reasons.

Yet currently the Vatican is fully cooperating with civil authorities, handing over all its records, and handing over any guilty priest to be judged by the civil authorities for criminal offenses. That is a sea change form the pattern of dissent, cover up, and conspiracy that occurred under Cardinal Law.

I would strongly urge everyone who has been criticizing the Pope to examine both his statements and his actions in the aftermath of this scandal and compare them to Cardinal Law. That attitude within the Church, that the scandal somehow demonstrated an assault on the Church which it ought to defend itself against with denials, distortions, and cover ups has finally ended and given way to real soul searching regarding this problem. A problem by the way that is not unique to the Church, to religious institutions, and is not caused by celibacy or the Church's stances on gay rights. Furthermore the vast majority of priests are completely innocent and working their best to serve their God. People can feel free to disagree with the Church, that is not what I am arguing against. For people to malign and assault the Church, those that work for it, and those that worship in it, is incredibly insensitive and nonsensical. The intensity and hurtfulness of some of this rhetoric is really quite shameful.  


[ Parent ]
"one incident?" (6.00 / 1)
No, there were thousands.

And, for the record, even after the scandal, I didn't leave. In true battered-spouse fashion, I lingered for a few years, deeply unhappy and hurt. It was the church closing schools when school was in session that helped me decide to go, it was the continued and worsening hostility the Church as an institution -- not laypeople -- treated gay people and women, that helped make the decision easier. When the Catholic Church decided to force the closure of all its adoption services because a few gay couples may have ended up with special needs children who otherwise probably wouldn't have had any home, I was starting to feel very, very confident in my decision. When an institution's bigotry starts to get in the way of its supposed mission work, there's something deeply wrong with it -- and it's only getting worse, over time.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
addendums (6.00 / 1)
Name me one person in this thread who's condemned those who worship in the RCC? Specifically, I've mentioned Church leadership, continually saying I wasn't referring to rank-and-file members. Certainly, that's what others have been speaking to, as well.
---
You repeatedly claim this scandal is contained to Cardinal Law. It's not. Dozens of Cardinals across the world were just as guilty, while the Pope is at least not innocent. No matter how you try to rationalize his actions when he was a Cardinal in Germany, the fact of the matter is he had a pedophile priest under his jurisdiction at the time, sent that priest to therapy and never prevented him from returning to duty, where he went on to harm more children. To this day, that priest remains a priest and in the employ of the church. The Pope was wrong and his actions caused at least one more child to have to live through that nightmare.
---
And people have every right to be angry and "malign" the church as an institution for being bigoted (among other reason). It is. That much is not up for debate. You, on the other hand, are not well served by trying to conflate that protestation against the institution with those who practice the faith. If people criticize "the church," that does not mean they're criticizing you. You are not a victim. Until the Church learns to stay out of other people's business, be prepared for the people who stand at the edge of their sword to fight back, but realize that they're not fighting back against you.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
some people can't handle criticism of their church (5.00 / 2)
their faith does not allow it, for how could their institution possibly be wrong?

It was a long and hard road for me to extricate myself from that institution, but I'm very glad I did it. People, in good conscience, should not support an institution that covers up and therefore propagates child molestation and rape. If enough people leave, the church will have no choice but to change drastically and become an institution where such deeds could no longer happen on a massive scale, but it would have to take something on the scale of the Magna Carta to do it. The church will not voluntarily change until it has to change or die.  

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
I can handle criticism (4.00 / 1)
The Church can be validly criticized for its handling of the past sex abuse crisis, criticized for elevating abortion over all other issues within the civil sphere, and criticized for playing politics with communion. I get that. I get those criticisms. What I do no understand is the deep hatred, name calling, stereotyping, and painting with broad brushes of generalization and anecdotal evidence that so many on this thread have engaged in. That is quite hurtful and again were it directed at a religious or racial minority group would have resulted in suspensions from posting for those guilty. But to say priests hate women and fear sex, to call the entire church a child rapist ring, to call me a child rapist, to compare the Pope to the Ayatollah, I am clearly not the only person who sees this as hurtful to me personally and to my church and completely destructive to any kind of civility on this thread.

We can feel free to disagree-just follow the ground rules that BMGers are supposed to follow-no name calling, no unsubstantiated allegations, innuendo or rumor without backing them up with facts and with links, no insulting peoples race, religion, or creed. Why is it so hard for adults not to act like children or worse hateful bigots when it comes to discussing the Catholic church?


[ Parent ]
Honor and recognition. (6.00 / 3)
Why is it so hard for adults not to act like children or worse hateful bigots when it comes to discussing the Catholic church?

Michael Sandel speaks eloquently on matters of honor and recognition, and what he has to say on how and why we accord honor, respect, and recognition to institutions is relevant in this matter.  

The framing of your question here is telling and reveals, I think, the truth of Sandel's observations.  People expect an organization with institutional status to behave in accordance with its principles, especially an organization that holds itself up as the authority on matters related to moral principles.  The public perception is that the Catholic church has not only failed in behaving in accordance with its mission and purpose, that's bad enough,  but has actively established an elaborate process to hide, obfuscate, and justify its patently immoral behavior.  So not only do we have the criminal and immoral sexual exploitation of children by individuals to contend with, but the perpetrators comprise an institution which derives its moral own authority by its own agency.   Because the Catholic church has demanded its status and claims its privileged position with holy authority, people are inclined, due to the nature of people, to bestow honor and recognition upon it.   When the church's behavior communicates to people that its vaunted status is fraudulent or dishonest or perhaps even manufactured out of pure self interest, people become angry at not only the individuals involved but the institution  itself for its hypocrisy and exploitation of the natural human desire to honor and recognize institutions of value.  

So, in short, the anger you detect results from people's natural desire to honor and recognize the vaunted institutions of our society, especially one they have been taught has the right to claim moral superiority and authority.  


[ Parent ]
More comments (4.25 / 4)
Not to beat a dead horse but seriously folks, there has been a tidal wave of leaped to conclusions based on one incident.

Here are the facts:

The priest was never formally accused of abuse after the first accusation and continued in the priesthood until he left in the 2000s.

The priest was not under Benedict in his diocese

The priest was already at a facility in the diocese and Benedict allowed him to be treated for 'sexual impropriety' so its not even clear if Benedict knew that was with children.

Even if he did, pedophilia, much like homosexuality at the time, was deemed a curable psychological disorder, and so it was felt that with prayer and spiritual reflection a priest could return to his duties, it was just a way of restoring celibacy.

Now this was wrong, and today WOULD be criminal since we have clearly defined statutes on the subject, but please to call the Pope the leader of a criminal rapist ring, to compare him to the Ayatollah, to claim he and ALL the clergy should be prosecuted, to call for the US to pass sanctions against the Vatican, this is just as bigoted and irrational as the birthers, those that deny evolution or global warming, or people that hate on gays without any evidence. its truly shameful to see rational, reasonable, intelligent, and liberal people lambast the worlds largest and most prolific religion on almost no evidence what so ever.

Since I believe in backing up my facts here are some links:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog...

I would charge you who have accused my church and its Holy Father of criminal actions of backing this up with evidence.  


No. (6.00 / 1)
this is just as bigoted and irrational as the birthers, those that deny evolution or global warming, or people that hate on gays without any evidence.

No, it isn't.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Okay (4.50 / 4)
So you're just like the John Cleese character in the Argument sketch, simply saying 'no it isn't' does not constitute an argument.

So far we have had several claims that have gone completely unsubstantiated

1: By sabutai comparisons of the Pope, a humanitarian even if he disagrees with aspects of the platform of the Democratic Party, to the Ayatollah a figure that is anti-semitic, has arrested and murdered democratic activists, sanctions ethnic cleansing against Jewish and Zoastrian Persians, and that is stockpiling nuclear weapons in defiance of international law. No evidence to back this up.

2: By Laurel accusations that the Pope is the leader of a child rapist ring, that the Church is a child rapist ring, and that since the laity is part of said Church, ALL Catholics are part of a child rapist ring and are child rapists.

3: By BrooklineTom-that most priests hate women, fear sex, and are pedophilic as a result, and a church wide conspiracy to cover up sex abuse, and a church wide conspiracy to commit acts of child abuse and cover it up, all under church sanction

There have been other claims as well but those three are the most egregious and have been completely unsubstantiated by fact. Were such claims made be a newspaper the Church could and would sue for libel and win. Moreover were those claims to be made about another religious group I am sure the posters would be banned.

To test this I will post the following link regarding a recent sex abuse scandal amongst New York rabbis

And make the following claims:

Rabbis hate women and fear sex

Rabbis are just as bad as the Ayatollah

The Orthodox Jews are running a child rapist ring

 


[ Parent ]
You DO understand that ... (6.00 / 4)
There is no widespread doctrine of rabbinical celibacy. Right?

To the contrary, there is rather strong cultural and religious pressure for a Rabbi to be married.

You mention an abuse case against a Brooklyn Rabbi. I invite you to offer a shred of evidence that any person in any encompassing Jewish organization shielded him, attempted to pay off the victim in exchange for silence, or took any of the other institutional acts that the Catholic Church did by the THOUSANDS for DECADES around the world.

Not surprisingly, you have put words in my mouth that I didn't write. I didn't say that "most priests hate women", I said instead that men who hate women are over-represented in the Catholic church because of the factors I describe. As the old adage goes, it takes only a spoonful of sewage to spoil a vat of wine. I do say, because in my view the facts point compellingly in this direction, that there has, in fact, been a church-wide conspiracy to cover up acts of sex abuse by clergy.

Finally, I have not made any claims about pedophilia. In fact, the more accurate term that describes the overwhelming majority of the reported cases is "Hebephilia" ("an adult's sexual preference for pubescent children"). Since the similarly overwhelming majority of victims is male (unless there are a truly huge number of unreported female abuse cases), and the perpetrators are male by construction, then stating that the perpetrators are homosexual is a matter of observation. I am under the impression that the general population is about 10% homosexual. Most gay men do not abuse adolescents — in society at large, adolescent women are far more at risk from the overwhelming majority of heterosexual male teachers who therefore create a similarly overwhelming majority of heterosexual Hebephiles. Since the overwhelming majority of clergy sex abuse victims were male, and the perpetrators were male, what conclusions do you draw about the observed facts of the clergy sex abuse scandal?

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
A few points (6.00 / 1)
I refer you to my links above and well address a few more.

First here is a link to an NPR story showing that there was a massive abuse scandal within Brooklyn Jewish communities and an ongoing civil and criminal investigation into a systematic cover up by the schools and temples involved.

Secondly I refer you to the study I linked above which has shown that rates of pedophilia amongst non-Catholic clergy are in fact the same as rates within the Catholic clergy, and lower than rates among non-clergy within the general population.

Thirdly yes there is a rather strong cultural and religious pressure for a rabbi to marry, and there are also horrible cases of abuse and cover up in their community as well, so I think you just proved my point that there is no link to celibacy what-so-ever. The vast majority of rabbis that committed the abuses were married so it seems that allowing marriage does not solve pedophilia, in fact it has absolutely no change. The small fraction of clergy inclined to be pedophiles in any denomination will do so whether they are married or not. I don't hesitate to inform you that other statutory rapists throughout history, even recent history, were ostensibly happily married on the outside. Any organization that deals with children will attract pedophiles.

Lastly the rates within the Boy Scouts are equivalent to those within the Catholic Church and within the Chicago Public School System for that matter so an organizations religious bent also seems irrelevant.

And as to your last statement, overwhelmingly male teachers abuse female students, that seems to show me that even public schools have problems with abuse? Using your logic then they should be shut down by the state, and all of the teachers and principals should be prosecuted no matter what their connection to the abusers and victims is.

Also I was simply refuting the common trope amongst conservative Catholics that gay priests are automatically pedophiles. Many gay priests have served honorably by maintaining their celibacy and performing brave acts, including that priest on 9/11 so I was simply protecting gay priests from slander. Unlike some conservative Catholics, I have no problem with gay priests so long as they obey the same celibacy requirements straight priests do. I am glad we can at least agree that pedophilia and homosexuality are separate and unrelated things.  


[ Parent ]
Also (3.00 / 1)
While I appreciate you have now narrowed your conception of exactly how many priests hate women and fear sex I invite you to back up claims of how the organization instills this into them. I also don't like the double standard that I have to have a link to each fact I propose yet you can feel free to sputter anti-clerical nonsense without any shred of proof. But please share a link to the Protocols of Priests Hating Women and Fearing Sex that all Catholic clergy are supposedly indoctrinated in, if it is authentic I am sure it will cause quite a stir. Or did you find it on your shelf next to your books about Papists eating babies during Mass or the dangers of a Papist President. You know I think your right if we elect that damn Kennedy he'll make the College of Cardinals his cabinet now won't he?

[ Parent ]
Well said. (0.00 / 0)
For an interesting exchange, you might watch this Intelligence Squared debate in which the proposition "The Catholic Church Is a Force For Good in the World" is debated, Oxford style.  Hitchens and Fry clearly win the day--and the reasons why they win are so patently clear by the unwillingness of the proponents, an archbishop from Nigeria and a former MP, of the motion to acknowledge the church's history in any meaningful context.  This two-hour debate is an excellent example of what NOT to do in a debate, Oxford style or otherwise.  



[ Parent ]
Ah yes... (0.00 / 0)
... I remember linking to this one a while back.  Can't remember in regards to what though.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
We must read the (0.00 / 0)
same websites fairly often.  IQ2 is a great site.  Would that the American equivalent were half as lively and interesting.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
Well if I have the free time I will certainly watch it. I have seen partial transcripts, and while I have little respect for Hitchens, a war apologist among other faults, I have tremendous respect for Fry both on and off the small screen. That said the transcripts seem to show historical ignorance on the part of the non-believers and a tendency, a not too infrequent one sadly, to equate a lot of violence loosely associated with the Church with the Church itself.

For one none of the Crusades after the first were ever sanctioned by the Church, second the Pope narrowly was ordering the Christian nations to protect Pilgrims-not establish fiefdoms in the Middle East and not to slaughter Muslims or Jews. Third in regards to witch craft, those were local affairs that were not officially handled by the Roman church. A great example of this is Joan of Arc, a saint in the entire Church now but condemned as a witch by the English one, mainly because she was a political enemy of their state. Before the Reformation the Bishops actually had a lot of local autonomy and could be forced by Kings or local authorities to condone killings. Almost all of the killings related to heresies, related to the Spanish Inquisition, related to witchcraft, and related to ethnic cleansing of Jewish populations, were all directed by local authorities exercising temporal state powers rather than ecclesiastical ones. In some cases the Pope even condemned them for going too far, most notably the Spanish inquisition and the Spanish treatment of native peoples, were all condemned by the Holy Father.

Lastly the biggest flaw is anachronistically applying modern notions of human rights backward to a time that did not recognize them. The barbarism of the Crusades does not reveal the barbarity of religion, rather it reveals the barbarity of local cultures and customs and over several thousand years of military history where killing prisoners, associated civilians, enslaving enemies, burning down villages, etc. was an acceptable part of warfare. Clearly with Catholics slaughtering other Catholics throughout the middle ages in this same pattern one can see the violence was not due to the religion but due to the nature of feudal warfare itself.

Far more people were put to death in the service of atheist empires than at the direct bequest of Rome.  


[ Parent ]
Furthermore (0.00 / 0)
We can probably argue until the end of time about the Catholic church in the world, I would argue that right now it is doing a lot of good and that the current leadership of the church is doing a good job of handling the sex abuse cases. I do not see how the entire Papacy of Benedict can be discredited by the actions of a few priests and bishops of the Catholic church, by the same logic all of our soldiers are war criminals due to the actions of a few of their comrades at Abu Gharib, or Barack Obama is directly responsible for all the dead in Iraq even though his predecessor started that war, etc.  

[ Parent ]
Benedict isn't and wouldn't be discredited... (6.00 / 3)
... because of others' actions - the discredit stems from his own alleged actions.  He had a duty to report.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
Well, we could certainly argue until the end of time (6.00 / 2)
and never agree on any single thing about the Catholic Church.  

My view is simple, and I don't even need to dredge up the historical sins of the Church itself to justify my negative opinion.  They're behavior in the present day is enough.   Because:

1.  the historical behavior of the Church surrounding it's pedophile priests is appallingly self-interested and an affront to all things decent, and

2.  the Church actively campaigns against the use of condoms in third-world and other nations causing incalculable suffering and death, and

3.  the Church continues by doctrine to deny women control over their reproductive destiny by forbidding the use of contraceptives and the practice of abortion

I do not view the Catholic church as a force for good in the world; indeed, I view it a misguided and dangerous force.  I view the Catholic church as a bunch of hysterical virgins steeped in self-reverential dogma and arrogance with far too much influence on policy, both domestic and international.  

So, in short, we won't argue about the Catholic church, and while I appreciate the time you took to correct the historical record according to your understanding, I reject your apologist stance regarding the wrongs that are plain to any unbiased eye regarding the laundry list of bad things you claim the Church did not do.  


[ Parent ]
their they're its it's (6.00 / 1)
preview is my friend.  

[ Parent ]
Do you have an opinion on Judaism and Islam (0.00 / 0)
in terms of whether they're "forces for good in the world"?

[ Parent ]
Actually, (6.00 / 3)
I think faith-based belief systems are inherently counterproductive and, in some cases, destructive.  I would prefer that people arrived at their beliefs through a reasoned process based on evidence that has been tested and verified as true.  

[ Parent ]
Judaism and Islam (5.40 / 5)
are not singular, specific (not to mention wealthy) organizations.  The Roman Catholic Church is.

(I don't know lightiris's view on this, but personally, I think any institution or individual that encourages people to believe untestable, unfalsifiable claims for which there is no evidence, to reject science and reason as our best available tools for knowing about the world, or to regard some persons as having fewer rights than others because of their sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, beliefs, physical or mental ability, etc., is by definition, at least insofar as they promote those views, precisely the opposite of a force for good in the world.  They might do other, good things, and IMO in most cases good and bad acts don't directly cancel each other out: you can't necessarily just tote them all up and come up with a single number that indicates how good or bad someone or something is.  On the other hand, sometimes the bad is clearly of greater magnitude, with more widespread efects.)

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
You and I (0.00 / 0)
are in perfect synch.  Well said.  Thank you.  

[ Parent ]
Funny thing about the RCC (6.00 / 2)
I can praise and condemn it in almost the same breath.  Does the institution leave something to be desired? - yes.  However it can be among the most powerful voices on behalf of vulnerable people when it wants to be.  A great example of someone who put her Catholic faith to good use was Mother Teresa.  Just about any human institution (and make no mistake, organized religion is a human institution) has exemplary aspects, indefensible faults, and everything in between.

[ Parent ]
Plenty of people lead lives of (0.00 / 0)
devotion to their fellow human beings and never receive any recognition.  I don't find anything particularly special about Mother Teresa in that sense.  Many people like her have lead lives of dedicated service through NGOs and the like but haven't received one second of recognition.  Indeed, I suspect there are folks out there in all sorts of non-religious capacities doing good work that makes hers pale in comparison.  

[ Parent ]
Besides (0.00 / 0)
Mother Teresa is not necessarily a great example of someone who enacted unalloyed good in the world.  While I think few question her devotion and good intent, many critics both in India and outside of it argue that ministry was fundamentally imperialistic, and that she valorized poverty and suffering rather than trying to effect real changes to reduce them.  She certainly adhered to her church's dogma that women ought to be denied the right of bodily autonomy.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Quite true. I didn't have the courage to go down that (0.00 / 0)
road as I thought one more incendiary comment might make this thread on the Catholic Church spontaneously combust, thus bringing down the whole shootin' match.  Heh.  

I've read about her insistence on reusing syringes despite repeated warnings about AIDS & other serious communicable diseases and the relatively stable supply of  new & clean syringes available to her.   If it's God's will....ugh.  


[ Parent ]
Your's is a sad commentary... (6.00 / 3)
... that exemplifies how religion holds an undeserved special status protecting it from exposure to rules of discourse that every other set of ideas in our lives are held to.  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
I never said that (0.00 / 0)
In fact I said I could condemn it (doesn't take much effort to think of reasons to).  We absolutely should critique religion and I've certainly done my share.  I'm just trying to inject some balance here.  Some here are making the RCC out to be an evil racket and I'm pushing back against that attitude.

[ Parent ]
I wasn't replying... (0.00 / 0)
... to you, but to lightiris.  When the subject of Mother Teresa comes up and there is a legitimate counterpoint to be made, it is sad that it isn't made because of fear on the effect on the discourse.  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
Oh, OK (0.00 / 0)
I wondered, but sometimes the comments stop getting indented as they approach the right margin, hence my confusion.

[ Parent ]
Exactly right. (5.50 / 2)
As evidenced by the reaction by jconway to the criticisms of the Catholic church on this thread, it's little wonder that people are reluctant to openly have such conversations.  

And I complete agree with you (and others like Harris who have made the same point) that religion holds a wholly undeserved special status that insulates it from scrutiny.  Most sentient people would reject the sort of calculus that informs their religious beliefs were such calculus to be applied to any other aspect of their lives.  They would--and rightfully so--demand some sort of evidence before reaching a conclusion, decision, or opinion.  That so many of the earth's people blithely reject reasoned thinking in an area that affects the entirety of the globe and our future on it never ceases to amaze me.  


[ Parent ]
Again (0.00 / 0)
I am not attacking criticisms against the church I am attacking statements that are wholly divorced from fact. If you care to claim to test and verify every statement you make to make sure it is grounded in fact, yet you called the Catholic leadership a group of uneducated virgins, clearly a simply act of name calling with no basis in fact. I was called a child rapist, my church was called a child rapist ring, my pope was compared to a heinous dictator, and all of this without any kind of substantial facts or recriminations.

Notice I never gave zero's to anyone who criticized the Church that did not use bigoted language, that backed up their criticisms with fact, and that respectively disagreed with me.

For instance you listed four areas where you felt the church was not a force for good, notice i did not give you a zero. you are free to hold those opinions and criticize the church in that way. It is the name calling, the ignorance, and the very personal rhetoric employed against me, the Pope, or the Church that has so inflamed my passions.


[ Parent ]
For the record... (4.00 / 1)
...faith and reason need not be mutually exclusive.  There are plenty of us who know full well which of those should inform which aspects of our lives.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, but by definition faith and reason (6.00 / 3)
are mutually exclusive.   The vast majority of people make decisions based on a both--faith informs their religious lives and reason informs most other aspects.   If one makes decisions, any decisions, based on faith, then that is not a reasoned and rational approach to understanding truth, it's a faith-based approach to understanding truth.  And the two are most definitely mutually exclusive.    That is exactly the point I and others here have made.    

[ Parent ]
We pretty much agree. (0.00 / 0)
The vast majority of people make decisions based on a both--faith informs their religious lives and reason informs most other aspects.

That's EXACTLY what I was trying to say, but maybe your way is clearer.  I also agree that decisions that effect others in terms of public policy, should not be based on faith.


[ Parent ]
Isn't the definition.. (6.00 / 1)
... of faith 'belief without (or in spite of) reason'?  These are metaphysically mutually exclusive then, yes?  That is, if I had faith in proposition X and then I find demonstrable proof of proposition X, I will cease to credit my faith with my belief.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
But there are different things to think about (0.00 / 0)
For example, by my faith I believe that souls have an afterlife and ascend to Heaven, but reason makes me an evolutionist because that's where all the evidence points.  Both the athiests who try to "prove" God doesn't exists and the Religious Right who try to teach Creation as "science" don't seem to get what to me is an obvious separation and compartmentalization.  As Ecclesiastes might say, there is a time for faith and a time for reason; just don't try to let one encroach on the territory of the other.

[ Parent ]
The burden (6.00 / 1)
is not actually on atheists to prove there are no god(s).  That things for which there is no evidence do not exist is the default proposition, against which other claims must be proved.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Russell's celestial teapot. n/t (6.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
There's no burden either way. (4.50 / 2)
The existence of God is by definition neither provable nor disprovable, though I would say those who insist on believing something like literal Creationism DO have the burden come up with actual evidence to refute all the evidence favoring evolution.  I believe the existance of God is a very personal question which does not have one right answer.  If I say God exists, then for me He does, but if you turn around and say God does not exist, then for you He doesn't.  That's fine - next case.  There are athiests like I think Richard Dawkins who try to scientifically disprove the existence of God.  What I'm trying to say is don't bother because that's really not the point.

[ Parent ]
That IS the point, though. (5.50 / 2)
Do you believe your god acts in the world?  Do you believe he, she or it can effect miracles?  Do you believe he, she or it has effected miracles in the past?  Do you believe he, she or it listens and responds to communication from humans?  Do you believe there is such a thing as a consciousness or soul which is distinct from the electrical and chemical activity in a person's brain?  Those are claims about the world, the real, natural, physical world, and as such they're either true or false.  There is not one shred of evidence that they're true.

And do you act on those beliefs?  Do you advocate for laws, policies or regulations to be enacted or changed, or social pressures brought to bear, based on those beliefs?  Even if you don't believe or do any of those things, vast numbers of religious believers do - I'd go so far as to say virtually none believe in a strictly uninvolved god who never has had, does not and never will have any influence on the physical world, and who doesn't expect followers to behave any particular way.

That your particular, personal faith may truly be so esoteric and insubstantial - so strictly a "god of the gaps" view - as to make no claims at all which are subject to empirical evaluation, is not actually a very strong argument against debating the existence of (a) god(s) (or other supernatural beings), and pointing out that evidence and reason suggest very strongly that there are none.

I'll reiterate from my reply to Farnkoff above: religion - in the normal, everyday sense of believing not only in things for which there is no evidence but things there is ample evidence against and acting socially and politically based on those beliefs, not some rarefied, debate-club sense - is harmful.  It's harmful to believers, because it degrades their ability to think rationally and critically (because to believe in (a) god(s) requires rejecting evidence and reason with respect to that particular topic, and rejecting evidence and reason is a dangerous habit to get into, and one that tends to expand).  And it's harmful to non-believers, because believers are plentiful and act in the world, and when they act based on falsehoods instead of evidence, that very often makes things worse for everyone.

But this is getting a ways off topic, so I'll leave this subthread here.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Trying to be brief. (5.00 / 1)
Whenever someone claims a miracle I tend to be first in line to try to figure out what the real science-based explanation is.  As for previous alleged acts of God I treat the Bible as literature, which is either metaphorical or a description of how those who wrote the Bible understood their relationship with God, but in either case is at best BASED ON a true story as opposed to simply a true story.  I do pray, but often that is a way to make the person praying feel better, and of course there is no direct cause/effect relationship to prayer.  I do trust modern medicine to take care of my health needs, after all.

I don't believe in enacting laws based on religion alone, but what bugs me is the truth of the matter is what Christianity teaches is largely progressive; the Religious Right has twisted it and given us all a bad name.  There are countless verses in both testaments crying out for social justice.  I invite you to look into the United Church of Christ, my denomination, and its views, which by the way unlike the RCC in no way tries to insist that everyone adhere to them.  Those views, however, are progressive, inclusive, speak to social justice, and of course we believe an accurate reflection of Jesus' teachings and example.

I knew I'd go longer than I meant to as well, but I'll close by rejecting your definition of religion in your final paragraph.  I've never felt compelled to reject reason and evidence by my church.  If anything, in the UCC we are ENCOURAGED to ask challenging questions and think for ourselves regarding both matters of faith and the workings and policies of the institution.  I hope (and believe) that I could never be accused of advocating policy based on faith.


[ Parent ]
I'll return to this later, or if I forget I'm sure it will come up again (5.00 / 1)
but I wanted to note that I'm familiar with the UCC and the UUs and other liberal Christian denominations (speaking of which, if you aren't familiar with him, I highly recommend Fred Clark's blog) - in fact, I attended a UCC church when I was a kid, though I never really considered myself a Christian.  I agree that the Bible's basic teachings regarding how people should behave toward other people are progressive and laudable, and I'm happy to make common cause with people who pursue such goals whether as an outgrowth of rationalist humanism or of religion.  But when conversation turns to theological debate, I'm not going to pretend I don't see certain plain facts.  Though it may motivate them (and you) to strive to do good in the world, what they believe is still false.  What's the better case: a child who doesn't hit other children because they hope Santa Claus will bring them presents, or a child who doesn't hit other children because to do so would go against their sense of empathy and compassion?

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
I think the question... (6.00 / 1)
... smadin is getting at is: "Does your notion of religion or God make any testable claims about the world."  Most people's do make testable claims and that is where faith runs smack into reason because most of these testable claims ring false.  Even the 'answering' of prayer is testable.  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
No (to your first line question) (0.00 / 0)
By definition (at least my definition) faith does not deal in the realm of testable claims.  That's what makes it faith.  I assure you all that I follow the evidence and do not believe literally in anything that science and reason have a much better answer for.  This is pretty consistent with the attitude you will find in my denomination, though there certainly is the spectrum therein.  Of course, I've been told that I am not a true Christian because I don't believe literally in either a virgin birth or corporeal ressurrection, but I emphatically reject that judgement.

[ Parent ]
Are you sure you've read Richard Dawkins? (6.00 / 1)
Let me be very specific — have you actually read "The God Delusion"? I ask because he goes to some length, successfully I think, to explain that he is specifically not attempting to "disprove the existence of God" (at least the metaphorical "God" that you allude to in this comment).

I must say that I'm somewhat baffled by your comments in this thread. You've accused me of "Selecting the target first then finding the crime", when (as huh pointed out) the entire thread exists because of a growing crescendo of accusations, supported by more and more compelling evidence, that specifically and personally targets Joseph Ratzinger's role in the cover-up. Your comparison of me to Ken Starr is, well, a disgusting cheapshot that demeans you.

The point that Mr. Dawkins makes that you seem to miss is that theists make specific statements about the material world that are well within the domain of the "proveable". These are generally offered by those theists as arguments to support the claim of the existence of an objective, external (but of course invisible) agent named "God." If anything, Mr. Dawkins belabors the point that knocking down these claims is not attempting to "disprove the existence of God." All of this is basic "rhetoric", in its clinical and legalistic sense (Bertrand Russell's china teapot and all that), and you accuse of Mr. Dawkins of attempting what he explicitly does not do.

For example, the claim that intercessory prayer "works" is a statement about the material that can be (and has been) scientifically tested. It doesn't fall in that domain of "neither provable nor disprovable", it either does or does not work (and every valid effort to prove its effectiveness has failed). Similarly, statements about human parthenogenesis are "scientific"; it either can or cannot happen. While it's true that elaborate chains of argument can be constructed in an attempt to tie phenomena like this back to some unseen, invisible — let's not forget that the Jewish tradition asserts even unnameable — agent, those chains (a) fall squarely within the scientific domain and (b) inevitably suffer from catastrophic logical fallacies. In the same way that a divide-by-zero error invalidates whatever "mathematical" proof that contains it, so too does each of these chains.

So we end up with dizzying array of material, testable phenomena that are clearly inside the scientific domain. The standard theistic response when that material is shown to fail the test of scientific rigor every time is "God isn't provable" or some such hand-waving.

The evidence that Joseph Ratzinger and other high-ranking Vatican officials committed crimes (such as "Conspiracy to obstruct justice") is well-documented and growing. The fact that he happens to be a religious figure has no bearing on whether or not he committed those crimes.

All this god-bothering is simply a distraction from the reality that this mortal and very earthly organization has been responsible for destroying the lives of tens of thousands of adolescents.

"If the Republicans will stop lying about the Democrats, the Democrats will stop telling the truth about the Republicans" -- Adlai Stevenson


[ Parent ]
Yes I've read it (and other Dawkins works). (0.00 / 0)
But in your explanation you make my point.  Dawkins makes the same leap of faith (sorry, couldn't resist!) that supposes that all theists are on the same page.  SOME theists DO try to make provable claims as you suggest, but they are missing the point at least as much.  It is the height of arrogance, I think, to try to prove your religious beliefs to be true.  I believe in God, but I would never try to prove His existence because (a) it's arrogant as I mentioned (b) it's not provable according to any scientific method, and (c) justification of my own faith does not in any way require others to agree with me.  Sorry if you see my own comments as a little harsh, but I've definitely gotten the "Can we finally nail him?" vibe from you here.

[ Parent ]
Well apparently atheists are not subject to those rules either (3.67 / 3)
Since apparently they are free to call me a child rapist, my church a child rapist ring, compare my pope to an anti-semetic fundamentalist dictator that has no respect for hman rights, say that a large number of priests hate women and fear sex, and basically say whatever they want about the church without any kind of consequences. Imagine if such rhetoric was employed against Jews or blacks and the entirely different reaction it would have caused. But no lets throw the papists on the fire and watch them burn, its a lot more fun and hey it just shows how rational and enlightened we are.  

[ Parent ]
I don't have a problem.. (0.00 / 0)
... with you criticizing remarks for overreach at all.  I just lament that here was a remark that didn't have overreach and was a valid point in the discussion and there was a 'fear' of offending.  In a reasonable discussion, valid points of contention should be open for discussion regardless of their relationship to the 'sacred'.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
I think her role... (0.00 / 0)
...was to alleviate suffering "on the ground" as it were, where it could be for others to advocate for policy changes.  Not sure how alleviating suffering is imperialistic.  As for her dogma views, you and I both disagree with those views, but the RCC is a tow-the-line organization and as a representative of the Church she had to take those positions publicly.

For what it's worth I cringed when I heard that Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope.  I was hoping for someone whose last job was not head of the Holy Office and thus accustomed to enforcing dogma.  I have no allusions that the Roman Catholic Church was going to become the next United Church of Christ (my denomination and very different in governance and policy preferences), but at least I was hoping for someone who was open to dialogue about making some changes.


[ Parent ]
I don't know about "pale in comparison" (0.00 / 0)
but otherwise of course you are correct about others via their own faiths or other organizations.  I was just trying to find an easily recognized example of a very positive face for Roman Catholicism.

[ Parent ]
So, just to get this straight, (6.00 / 2)
The church should not be held accountable for much of anything that it's done wrong in the recent past or otherwise, in most cases because Rome itself was not 'directly' responsible, but should be held accountable for the things it's done right, even if many or most of those things are largely done by the laity and the church itself was not and is not 'directly' responsible for them (and often works against those very causes).

I just wanted to get that clear.

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.


[ Parent ]
Whoa...whoa (6.00 / 2)
You get to have your own opinions, but not your own facts.

"second the Pope narrowly was ordering the Christian nations to protect Pilgrims"

The Pope proclaimed that it was not wicked to kill Saracens (Turks controlling Jerusalem), and that Crusaders should gird their swords.  He speaks of just war, not the protection of pilgrims.

Secondly, the Seljuk Turks had prohibited pilgrimages to Jerusalem (mainly due to issues within the Muslim world that had nothing to do with failed kings in Rome).  The only pilgrims in danger were those who felt that their beliefs compelled them to violate the local law.  Should we invade any country that arrests a crazy American who feels the same?

Thirdly, the charge of witchcraft against Jeanne Darc were dropped.  The Burgundians (not the English) obtained a death sentence on the third trial on the crime of...crossdressing.

Regardless, I'm not sure the true question is comparing regimes that enforce religion versus regimes that enforce nonreligion. Your characterization of "atheist empires" -- leading me to believe that you're playing fast and loose with both words -- is rather misleading. More relevant, regimes that enforce a certain viewpoint on religion have been almost always more lethat than those that permit religious freedom.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (3.00 / 1)
By atheist empires I referred to the Soviet Union, Hitler's Germany, and Communist China. All three were expansionist states, consolidated territory, and consistently invaded their neighbors to expand their borders, with power centralized in one figure. I would argue that fits a broadly defined model of expansionist empire, but if you feel empire should only refer to monarchical regimes than that's fine. I will use the phrase atheist regimes then. That said far more people were put to death under regimes that feared no god than under regimes that feared god.

That said there is no escaping the fact that the Catholic church, protestant churches, Islam, Judaisim, most religions and most nations have caused death and destruction over the years. As Christopher points out our own nation has killed millions in the wars it fought, destroyed native populations, enslaved a race of people, and committed a whole host of historical wrongs. Since it is the nature of man to sin and cause evil than any organization of men will have caused evil. I have never once argued the church is perfect. I am asking people to be reasonable and take the good as well as the bad and not to use over the top rhetoric.

And please you know better than to compare the Pope to the Ayatollah. its an apples to oranges comparison and I expected better from an educated person and an educator.

I understand as a socially liberal atheist you have a lot you disagree with my church over, and that is fine, but you should at least concede that Benedict respects democracy, promotes human rights, does not hate Jews, and is not actively seeking to control his neighbors via WMD stockpiling.  


[ Parent ]
Ah, but (6.00 / 5)
The "atheist empire" argument is a canard.  It's not a matter of which type of regime killed the most people, but the reason these people were killed.  Yes, people were killed to preserve the power of the Soviet regime, but not its atheism.  Stalin's purges took out millions of good little atheists who were friends of Trotsky.  On the other side, the Jews and Muslims were not eliminated from Catholic Spain because they represented an alternate power structure, but because of their religion.  Soviet Catholics were killed not because they believed in God, but because they subscribed to an organization with the potential moral suasion to undercut the regime.  This is the m.o. of any absolutist regime, regardless of preference -- I don't see how that comes into this question unless someone wants to see history as a scoreboard and not a story.

An illustration is Fulan Gong.  The modern PRC had little issue with Falun Gong until it gathered thousands in a march on party headquarters.  This scared the h-ll out of the regime, and then, and only then, the batons came out.  It wasn't their religiosity (of which the regime was long aware) but their power -- why else would the PRC be fine with tame Catholic bishops?

As for Hitler's Germany, Hitler got where he was with the approval of the Catholic hierarchy, he was arguably a Christian himself (certainly in private correspondence), and was working on a substitute religion with Goebbels when it all came to the end.

I think religion has provided good and bad, which is why I think that side of the discussion leads nowhere.  Would Mother Theresa had done so much if she weren't religious?  Would Beethoven not have composed brilliant symphonies without being paid by a religion?  Would Torquemada have tortured in the name of the king, if not in the name of his religion?  Nobody knows, and I don't see who anyone reasonably could claim otherwise beyond a case-by-case basis.

I do compare the pope to the Ayatollah because they are the two most prominent leaders who take their mandate from a deity, and have translated that to temporal power.  For that matter, the same can be said of the Dalai Lama.  What all three do with that power is very, very different.  From a historical point of view, Benedict XVI has the same powers of Alexander VI.  Very different men.

Regarding Benedict XVI, from what I know he has no truck against Jews, he is lukewarm on human rights (I include those for glbt citizens of the world...all 400 million of them), his statements on democracy are kind of..odd..and I doubt he has any WMDs.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
The hostility... (0.00 / 0)
... between Muslims and Christians of Moorish Spain has been overrated.  



"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)


[ Parent ]
My understanding... (6.00 / 1)
For one none of the Crusades after the first were ever sanctioned by the Church

... is that the Albigensian crusade was entirely church directed.  Indeed, the only thing being 'harmed' by the Cathars was the institution of the church.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)


[ Parent ]
Systemic, part II (0.00 / 0)
Inside Germany's Catholic Sexual Abuse Scandal (Der Speigel)
This is what it looks like, the document of a conspiracy: 24 pages, with appendix, in Latin, published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Vatican. A "norma interna," or confidential set of guidelines for all bishops, who were required to keep it a secret for all eternity, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

The guidelines, issued in the year of our Lord 1962, address a sensitive subject: sex in the confessional.
. . .
According to the instructions from Rome, the bishops were to deal very firmly with each individual case -- so firmly, in fact, that everything would remain within the confines of the Holy Church. After all, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith -- formerly known as the Inquisition -- has centuries of experience in conducting internal investigations. The Vatican has always filled all the positions in such investigations -- prosecutors, defendants, judges -- from within its own ranks, while the investigation files have been kept in the secret archives of the Roman Curia.
. . .
As shocking as the [latest] revelations were, they are merely "the tip of the iceberg," says the current director of Canisius College, Father Klaus Mertes, who made public the sexual abuse of students.

For decades, German bishops tried to look the other way when their pastors engaged in sexual abuse, as well as to downplay the problem by characterizing it as isolated incidents. Now they are finally revealing their own figures, though hesitantly. According to a SPIEGEL survey of Germany's 27 dioceses conducted last week, at least 94 priests and members of the laity in Germany are suspected or have been suspected of abusing countless children and adolescents since 1995. A total of 24 of the 27 dioceses responded to SPIEGEL's questions.
. . .
[German Church members'] shock stems not only from the fact that there are pedophiles in the church, as there are elsewhere in society. It also comes from the fact that the church systematically protected the perpetrators and ignored the victims, and that it repressed and covered up sexual abuse in its own ranks for decades -- and in doing so enabled pedophile priests to leave behind a trail of emotional devastation throughout Germany.
. . .
Whenever rumors surfaced in Catholic schools, parishes, youth groups and children's homes, or victims overcame their shame and reported the abuse, the church would downplay the cases, characterizing them as isolated, regrettable exceptions or the misconduct of an errant priest. This was the position taken by the Vatican and by German bishops, who were unwilling to accept that the problem could lie in the system itself.


The Speigel article is long and disturbing. I recommend it to anyone who's still thinking in terms of "aberration' or 'witch-hunt.'

Shoe bomber, underwear bomber -- why aren't we waging war on clothes?

Yes (6.00 / 1)
For far too long the Church believed that it could control the desires and urges of its priests, even those that were so deviant and they could not be controlled. And it did cover up abuse and fail to report to the authorities.

I HAVE NEVER ARGUED OTHERWISE.

What I do argue is that there is so far not enough evidence to implicate the Pope in any crime, and until then he is innocent until proven guilty. And I think the petty name calling against me, the Pope, and my church should stop. Is that too much to ask from a group of reasonable people supposedly based in reality?


[ Parent ]
Bing Crosby isn't walking through that door... (6.00 / 5)
What I do argue is that there is so far not enough evidence to implicate the Pope in any crime, and until then he is innocent until proven guilty. And I think the petty name calling against me, the Pope, and my church should stop. Is that too much to ask from a group of reasonable people supposedly based in reality?

On the contrary, not only is there ample evidence to implicate Ratzinnger for specific crimes but the whole and entire charge of hypocrisy for Catholic obfuscation in this, and other matters, refers directly back to the central Catholic doctrine of taking responsibility for others sins... That's the meaning of Christ on the cross: and the pope professes to lead an organization with that as a central tenet: from 'Original sin'; to the confessional; to calling priests (and the pope ) 'father'; to 'indulgences'; to self-flagellating priests who believe they can suffer for the worlds sins: the entire history of the Church can be seen as one long claim to responsibility for the sins of the world.  Given this, the clear implication of The Vicar of Christ (literal translation: Christs representative on earth...) in the crimes of the organization he leads is a fait accompli.

You can't be a Catholic and somehow separate the pope from the crimes of the organize for which he is the (ahem... infallible (sic)) leader.   It's axiomatic, doctrinal and, clearly, dogmatic.   This, too, explains the vehemence with which Ratzinger and others deny both crime and victim: they don't want to face the conclusions of their own doctrine.



---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
See this is the problem I've been having with this thread. (3.00 / 1)
Your complaints are about doctrine, which are perfectly legit (I have plenty myself.), but you let your other negative feelings toward the Church influence what is essentially a legal discussion.

[ Parent ]
How so? (6.00 / 1)
You (and jconway and some others) keep claiming that critics of the Catholic church and/or of the Pope "let [their] other negative feelings toward the Church influence what is essentially a legal discussion."

Where have they done this?  Petr's comment to which you're responding certainly doesn't.  He's making a clear argument, based on facts which we've gone over plenty of times in this thread already.  He's not mincing words, but he's not just lashing out with pointless vitriol, and it seems absurd to me to claim that 1) citing an organization's established doctrine; 2) pointing out where the organization has acted contrary to that doctrine; and 3) describing such behavior as hypocritical, is beyond the pale.

Certainly some people have expressed anger toward the church.  It seems, again, absurd to suggest that they shouldn't.  The church, an enormously wealthy and powerful organization which has held itself up for a millennium and a half as the exemplar of morality, compassion and love in the world, was aware for decades of a shocking number of clergy who were abusing that reputation and that trust and doing terrible harm to some of the most vulnerable in their communities, and responded, in a policy which - even if there weren't clear evidence, which as this post noted, there is - was so widespread and consistent from place to place that it had to have been coordinated from the higher levels of the hierarchy, by covering up, trying to silence victims, denying there was a problem, and shuffling offenders around, hiding them and protecting them.  Of course people are angry, of course they have "negative feelings" about the church, of course they're disgusted.  They should be!  I am!  In fact, I submit that there's something pretty wrong with anyone who isn't.

Being angry, and expressing anger, doesn't invalidate solid arguments.  No one is ranting against the church without evidence or reasons for their anger.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.


[ Parent ]
Maybe it's a personality difference (5.00 / 2)
I tend not to rant and boil up, or maybe I like more separation.  I have been focused on the legal ramifications of the case against the Pope.  I don't believe I have declared on the merits that the Pope did not do the things he is being accused of, though I appreciate jconway's offering the other side in that regard.  Yes, it is a moral outrage that priests acted contrary to the standards to which they should be held, and that the hierarchy looked the other way.  Yes, I don't like the church's priorities when it comes to doctrine and institutional defense.  I just feel that a case like this requires cool analysis of the facts, evidence, and applicability rather than an emotional response.

[ Parent ]
I think the nature of... (5.67 / 3)
... the alleged crime (and the organizational history that serves as a circumstantial backdrop) is pretty offensive.  I don't think its reasonable really to be surprised about or even object to such a sense of offense when it gets expressed.  Certainly we're not the legal jury here, just the jury of opinion.  As such, I think its pretty legitimate that there is public expression of outrage.  Especially in the context of this news item just being the latest in a long string.  I'm not sure what kind of reaction you were expecting or think is more legitimate.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]
um... (5.00 / 1)
Your complaints are about doctrine, which are perfectly legit (I have plenty myself.), but you let your other negative feelings toward the Church influence what is essentially a legal discussion.

I was answering the charge that my negative feelings were somehow merely puffs of air and native prejudice, as opposed to legitimate outrage over unacceptable behavior.    I don't know that we were having a specifically legal discussion, especially since I was accused of naive and unreasoning bigotry because I said I didn't like bad (illegal) behaviour...  

And, as I pointed out, the bulk of the crimes would have never have happened if the Catholics had followed the tenets of their doctrine and take responsibility.  Too many problems were seen because of an earlier refusal to take responsibility: many more children suffered because of the acts, tone and failures of the leadership.  Failures in doctrine lead directly to further crimes.  

---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
And the other shoe drops. (6.00 / 2)
From the New York Times

Psychiatrist Says Church Was Warned About Priest
By NICHOLAS KULISH and KATRIN BENNHOLD
Published: March 18, 2010

"I said, 'For God's sake, he desperately has to be kept away from working with children,'" the psychiatrist Werner Huth said in an interview Thursday. "I was very unhappy about the entire story." Dr. Huth said he was concerned enough that he set three conditions for treating the priest, Peter Hullermann: that he stay away from young people and alcohol and be supervised by another priest at all times. Dr. Huth said he issued the warnings - explicit, both written and oral - before the future pope, then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger, left Germany for the Vatican in 1982. In 1980, following abuse complaints from parents in Essen that the priest did not deny, Archbishop Ratzinger approved a decision to move the priest to Munich for therapy.

The next time someone defends this morally bankrupt organization, I think I may just blow.  


I suppose I should be surprised. (6.00 / 1)
So sad that I'm not.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

[ Parent ]





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