Tragedy in the tunnels

This is also yet another great example (6.00 / 3)

of why the T should get more funding, and be encouraged to expand services.

It's common that the T picks up the slack in the face of tragedy or difficulty in the city.  Problem with a tunnel?  The T will ease the congestion.  Fire strikes an apartment building in the middle of winter?  The T sends out busses so the victims don't have to sit outside for hours in sub-freezing temperatures.  Pollution and smog reducing the health of citizens?  The T switches to natural gas and emits far fewer air pollutants per passenger mile than cars.  81 days a year, the T keeps Kenmore Square from becoming a disaster area.

In addition to a stronger T resulting in a safer, cleaner, more livable city for everyone, the T does a great job of easing pain in both predicted and unpredicted problems that impact tens of thousands in the city.  They get little credit for that, but they're providing a really important service in doing so.

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:47:13 AM CDT

Sad. (0.00 / 0)

Condolances to the woman's family...this is shocking, and I hope they investigate this carefully.

On a personal note that doesn't seem so important in light of the tragedy, I need to get into Boston in midday today for an appointment. Faboo.

Left in Lowell: cuz why read the Lowell Sun if you don't have to? ;)

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by: Lynne @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:41:00 AM CDT

^ Take the T (0.00 / 0)

(if at all possible, for the good of yourself and greater humanity)

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:17:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're right Stormv, (1.50 / 8)

and the let the Holocaust serve as a reminder that oil heat is safer than gas heat.

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:04:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

^ WTF? (0.00 / 0)

eom

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:10:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Use of sardonic irony explained (0.00 / 0)

Maybe his pijnt was that using some poor woman's horrible death as an opportunity to make political plugs for the T is, um, a wee bit insensitive and likely not a good idea.

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by: CentralMassDad @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:34:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

WTF is right? (0.00 / 0)

EB3 before I recommend you be banned forever for such a disgusting comment I suppose you should have the opportunity to either recant or explain what in the hell you are talking about.

A blogger no more.

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by: Andy @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:12:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here's my guess (0.00 / 0)

My guess is that he's saying the following:

Cars and trains are both methods of transit.  The fact that an automotive transit project caused people to die because it was subject to intentional criminal fraud during it's construction does not imply that automobiles are somehow less safe than trains.

If all the big dig money had instead gone to the T, and a new train had derailed and killed people, we'd be facing the same situation.

Offensive and cynical way of saying it though.

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by: adamierymenko @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:26:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe... (0.00 / 0)

but that has nothing to do with my comment.

I recommended that Lynne take the T today because the roads are so jam packed.  It might be faster for her and... wait for it... if more people take the T today, the traffic will lighten up, making it better for everyone else.

So, I ask EB3 again... WTF?

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:36:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You reccommended Lynne Take T.. (0.00 / 0)

in your second comment. That is Larry Luccinoesque Stormv. Very good.

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:41:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And that is the post (0.00 / 0)

that you replied to.  So, if you had beef with another post, why not post there?

Keep stirring it up.

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:47:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, (0.00 / 0)

Pretend I did post it there and respond.

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:48:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can't... (0.00 / 0)

I'm in a reality based community.  Actually post there, and I just might respond.

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:52:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Very Mature Response (3.00 / 1)

Congrats

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:54:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sure (0.00 / 0)

If I understand Stormv, she is saying -  'let me use this tragedy to make the case for the T.'
A little too soon, wouldn't you say?

Andy, tell me where the line is drawn? What is acceptable? Can a metaphor involve death and destruction and the worse in humanity?
Does the historical era in which it happened matter?
Is a Rwanda or Darfur reference acceptable?

Is this the opportunity you have been waiting for?
A phony issue to silence someone who rarely agrees with you?
It wouldn’t surprise me?

Go ahead.

But please, let me know what the rules are as far as references to evil.

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:35:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

^ You fail. (0.00 / 0)

You were wrong with your understanding, as I wrote above.  You were also wrong because, well, your comment was stupid, obtuse, and not at all clear.  Finally, you were wrong on Godwin's Law.

Oh fer three.

I won't rate your comment a '0' because I never give sub-positive ratings on comments on a thread I'm also participating in, in an effort to control clouded judgement.  But, if somebody else sank you with a '0', I wouldn't shed a tear.

And to top it off, there's no 'r' in my id.  Never has been.

But P.S.: the death rate (per mile, per passenger, etc) is far lower on the T than it is on MA highways, so were I making that case -- and I wasn't -- it might be a good one.  That, of course, completely ignores all of the other social ills that result from driving, including everything from air and water pollution to a dependance on foreign oil that may or may not result in Middle Eastern wars, all of which also point to a society that uses more public transit being a healthier society.

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:41:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You Keep Making My Point (0.00 / 0)

"...all the other social ills from driving."

Perhaps the woman deserved it. Like some say about AIDS patience.

OOOOH,
you guys can have a field day with that.

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:44:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stormy - what about the REST of us? (0.00 / 0)

Did you know that MILLIONS of Mass. residents live nowhere NEAR a T Station?

Yr. Obedient Servant, Peter Porcupine, Republican

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by: Porcupine @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 13:34:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let's reduce that number! (0.00 / 0)

I'd love to see the T go all the way out to Springfield.  Worcester has had a bit of a comeback, and sending the T to Springfield (via Worcester) might help both of those communities.

So, get out to Springfield, and you'll put another few hundred thousand near a T station.  Heck, I'd love to see spikes extend out of Worcester and Springfield so that folks could live in their suburbs and successfully commute more easily.

And, it doesn't just have to be the T.  There are local transit agencies in many Mass communities.  Fund them more too.

The reality is that most people in Massachusetts live within 10 miles of a T station.  Is that "close enough"?  I guess it depends on your own personal situation.

P.S.  As I pointed out earlier, there's no 'r' in my name.  Somehow Republican leaning folks keep putting it in there.  Go figure.

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by: stomv @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 13:57:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stomy, I'm sorry... (5.00 / 1)

...I picked up the bad spelling from the hypnotically compelling EB3!

Yr. Obedient Servant, Peter Porcupine, Republican

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by: Peter Porcupine @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 18:11:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey Andy.. I Thought You Were Going to Reccommend.. (0.00 / 0)

that i be banned?

What gives?

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 13:49:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

getting into Boston (0.00 / 0)

I'm picking up Mrs. sco at Logan tonight.  That will be an adventure.

This whole thing makes me sick.  We've been talking about the shoddy workmanship and people skimming off the top for how many years now?  Where is the accountablility?  Everyone is pointing fingers, but no one is actually doing anything about it -- not the current or previous Governors, not the legislature, not the current or previous Attorneys General, not Masspike, Massport, or MassHighway.  Instead we have turf battles and people looking the other way, or people making noise but little by way of restitution.  It's shameful.

.08 Acres
.0000016% of Massachusetts Political Commentary

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by: sco @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:32:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The tunnels will still be closed tonight. (5.00 / 1)

If you can manage it by T, you'll be much better off.

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by: David @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:39:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not sure... (0.00 / 0)

Taking the MBTA from Watertown might end up taking as long as slogging through the Callahan.  At least that one hasn't collapsed yet.

It's either a bus and three trains or two busses and one train (I don't care what they call it, the Silver Line is still a bus).

.08 Acres
.0000016% of Massachusetts Political Commentary

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by: sco @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:50:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Indicative of complex public construction projects in MA (5.50 / 2)

Very very tragic.  Condolences to the Devalle family.

According to reports, the ceiling panel attachment method which failed is used only along 200 feet of the Ted Williams.  (We'll see about that.)

It's ironic that the work was done by Modern Continental, once one of the largest construction companies in the US, certainly in New England, but now essentially in receivership.  They were THE most politically connected heavy construction contractor in MA, and received many millions of dollars of Big Dig contacts (as well as the Route 3 expansion.)

They also were very frequently cited by MEPA for illegal dumping of Big Dig construction debris and spoilage.

This doesn't take any of the responsibility off of the MTA's shoulders.  Someone -- maybe Matt Amerello -- needs prison time for this.  The Turnpike Authority was and is the sole responsible party; they were and are responsible for oversight of the Big Dig project -- it's planning, design, construction and operation.  Not Bechtel-Parson. 

Frankly, an accident like this suggests that the state should attempt FEWER, not more, complicated public infrastructure projects.  You think the MBTA would be a good steward of taxpayer's money if they embarked upon a major light rail expansion project?  I say no.

I wish I could advocate for the private development and private ownership our state's roads, sewer systems, bridges and other state and municipal utilities, like Spain and Ireland have pioneered, but I can't.  Private sector involvement in MA public works is strictly prohibited.

As I have stated before, Massachussets has THE WORST public construction bid laws in the nation.  We're the laughing stock of country when it comes to building roads, schools or even sidewalks in front of town hall.

It was inevitable that the shoddy work done by a corrupt and politically connected contractor, work awarded more by political favoritsm than on construction competence or price, would kill someone.  I just didn't think it'd be so soon.

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by: bostonshepherd @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:30:28 AM CDT

Refraining from projects isn't the answer (6.00 / 1)

I don't think, unfortunately, that refraining from projects is the answer.  I am also skeptical of privatizing infrastructure, despite being very much in favor of it in principle.

I think that the big problem here is the corruption.  Laws need to be changed, bidding processes need to be updated, and heads must roll.  I also think it's important to send politicians a message that we won't stand for this, even if it means voting for "the other guy" just to send that message.  Many Massachusetts politicians seem to me to be a bit too secure in their seats.

The corruption must be solved *before* attempting any kind of privatization.  I cannot stress this more!  Look at what happened when California attempted to "deregulate" (not really, but that's a whole other issue) and privatize it's electricity industry in a corrupt environment.  Privatization in a corrupt environment is *way* worse than just leaving things the way they are.  It tends to turn into a flat out give away to favored companies followed by price gouging-- I've heard the term "pirateization" for this phenomenon.

In a corrupt environment, the best strategy is always conservative.  Leave things alone.  If you try to make big changes in a corrupt environment, the culture of corruption will insert itself into the change process and further rig things in its favor.

I don't think we *can* refrain from infrastructure projects, either.  Boston needed the big dig, and it needs more light rail too.

The only thing we can do, and must do, is roll heads and clean up the system.  This needs to become a *big* issue in the upcoming elections.

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by: adamierymenko @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:00:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Needed? (0.00 / 0)

Maybe when the price tag was $4 billion, we 'needed' the Big Dig, but if we knew it would cost nearly $15 billion, maybe we'd have decided we 'needed' to come up with a different solution.

.08 Acres
.0000016% of Massachusetts Political Commentary

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by: sco @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:09:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A "Throw the Bums Out" strategy is long overdue in the Mass Legislature (0.00 / 0)

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by: gary @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:14:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Throwing the bums out when they're our bums (0.00 / 0)

Ok... here's my take on "throw the bum out."

The problem is, some of the bums happen to be Democrats.  Chances are if you're hanging around Blue Mass Group then you, like me, don't particularly want to vote for the National Socialist Fundamentalist Quack Party (my pet name for the Republicans :).

So replacing the Democrats whose heads need to roll doesn't look likely this way.

Instead, maybe we could take some tips from the much deserved flogging being administered at the grassroots level to Joe Lieberman in Connecticut.  Even if Lieberman's challenger loses, it still provides a signal to him that a substantial portion of his base is not happy about him licking Bush's boots.

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by: adamierymenko @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:30:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

MA's hopeless (0.00 / 0)

The chance of changing Chpts. 7, 30, and 149 are slim to zero.  We're stuck, for the most part, with the worst public bid laws in the US.  These laws promote shoddy work, corruption and fiscal mismanagement because they do not allow any single private party to take overall responsibility for any project greater than $12,000 (or has it been raise to $20,00?)

Just look at the Big Dig?  Who's to blame for the overruns? The leaks?  And now, a fatality. No one. Everyone. Try suing Mass Turnpike.

This is why the state's scope of work should be limited to snowplowing, painting bridges and manning the toll booths.

That's all they're qualified to do. Besides not checking Modern Continental's work.

I wouldn't give the MBTA an extra dime.

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by: bostonshepherd @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:20:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mark Roosevelt Where Are You? (0.00 / 0)

When Mark Roosevelt, Democratic nominee for Governor in 1994 debated Governor Weld he said, "Governor, you are not a corrupt man, but your administration is."
He was right, and last night's tragedy was one of the results.

How did it happen? Well,
1. Bill Weld thought it would be neat to governor.
2.So he worked his butt off, spent money, teamed with Cellucci and got the nomination
3. Then he got the benefit of Frank Bellotti being a crybaby because he lost and endorsing him against the Democrat John Silber. Frank introduced then him to his fundraiser, Peter Berlandi. His name became a househod one in the mid 90s.
4. After beating John Silber Bill Weld had fun, but hated the working part of the governorship. And he was loyal and thankful. So he gave carte blanche to many people, with the most power going to Cellucci.
5. Cellucci, a known gambler, with an inexplicably large debt ($800,000 I believe) was given the keys to many rooms.
Suddenly we're seeing teamsters almost getting movie studios built, movie executives refusing to work here, Big Dig contracts given to underbidding restaurateurs/farmers (Les Marino), Big Dig oversight contracts given to parent companies of those they are overseeing, administration officials turning their backs on blatant wrongdoings.

  Now we have Romney and Reilly turning it into a political opportunity with no substance. It’s too easy, and not really fair, to blame Amorello. I blame the republican administrations.

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

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by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:01:29 AM CDT

Roosevelt (0.00 / 0)

As an aside, Roosevelt is now superintendent of schools in Pittsburgh.

Just in case you were curious.

.08 Acres
.0000016% of Massachusetts Political Commentary

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by: sco @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:13:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ya think he'll be at the All-Star Game tonight? (0.00 / 0)

Ernie Boch, III is not related to Ernie Boch, Jr. however he does hope to be in his will.

Justice for Tookie

---

by: EB3 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:26:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pretty Scary (0.00 / 0)

WHen I heard about it, I just think it so easily could have been me. I frequently travel the tunnel at about the exact hour it came flying down.

They really need to make sure that it was a freak thing, by thoroughly checking the entire complex. So sad that people have to die before things get made right.

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:09:40 AM CDT

Another Perspective (0.00 / 0)

http://capecodporcupine.blogspot.com/2006/07/limits-of-friendship_11.html

Plenty of blame to go around, IMHO.

Yr. Obedient Servant, Peter Porcupine, Republican

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by: Porcupine @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 12:22:08 PM CDT

Wasting money is one thing...this is another. (0.00 / 0)

Making fun of the Big Dig has been great spectator sport ... until now. Unless the investigation reveals that this is a freak accident, someone should indeed do jail time, and I suspect it should be someone on the contractors' side - they're the ones who ultimately create and sign off on the design. The politicians and bureaucrats can enforce proper review procedures, but they can't look at a design and say whether it's safe or not. As a mechanical engineer, I hope that this was a freak accident, rather than gross negligence. I hope.

As soon as I heard of this, I thought of a tradition held by engineers in Canada, where when you become a professional engineer, you starting wearing a ring that is, according to legend, made of steel taken from a bridge that fell down and took many lives, due to bad design. It's a kind of crazy tradition, but it's always seemed important to me.

I'm profoundly angry at the engineering companies that were involved in this. As I said, we should wait until the investigation is complete, and I hope the finding is that this was a freak occurrence that no one could have predicted. But if it was negligence, then all the companies in the chain of responsibility should be closely scrutinized, and some should probably be forced out of business. Anyone remember Enron and Arthur Anderson? Individuals in those companies may have destroyed a lot of people's retirements, but no one lost their life.

"The oldest ones are the young ones."

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by: Will @ Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 16:40:16 PM CDT