This is why you don't appoint hacks to important jobs

Don't Blame Enforcement (4.00 / 2)

Why attack the messenger, or in this case the enforcer?

The important issue here is what to do about our chronically neglected immigration laws that have made our borders a bad joke and made whole segments of our economy dependent on millions of illegal immigrant workers. From this stems the coercive employment tactics used by unethical businesses against vulnerable illegal immigrant labor.

If you advocate opening wide the borders or wholesale amnesty, then make a case for it.  But don't just whine that the enforcement of law is hurting the people who break the law, even if the enforcement is done only occasionally and is managed by a political hack.

That isn't the core of the problem.

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by: SquaringTheGlobe @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:15:54 AM CST

That is like saying... (6.00 / 3)

....not to blame the police if they raid a house to arrest citizens on drug charges, knowing that there are several minor children in the house, without making proper arrangements for the care of those children either before or after the raid is complete.  Would you say "the core of the problem is not children being left without caretakeres, it is drugs, so don't blame the drug enforcers for not considering the health and well being of the children"?

Also, it should be noted that a number of those children that have been separated from their families are probably American citizens (by virtue of the fact that many of them were probably born here)?  What are their rights?  Shouldn't the enforcer of immigration law take that into consideration?

Immigration is too big of an issue to try to narrow down the focus merely to enforcing deportation.  That is why it is vital that someone who knows what they are doing is in charge.

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:25:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What would you suggest? (5.00 / 3)

News reports said that 60 illegal immigrants were released immediately after the New Bedford raid simply because they affirmed that they were the sole care-givers to children. The child-care angle seems to be a play for the heartstrings of the left, and one meeting with considerable success, it seems.

You said: "Immigration is too big of an issue to try to narrow down the focus merely to enforcing deportation.  ...."

I agree completely that the issue is far bigger than enforcing deportation. But should we simply NOT enforce deportation at all? 

Ms Myers is responsible for some segment of enforcement, but the Congress and the executive branch are responsible for overall policy and the entire law.  Congress has passed legislation to develop a barrier that will further restrict illegal border crossings.  That would be a good start, in my opinion. What do you suggest?

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by: SquaringTheGlobe @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:43:16 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It is a curious kind of person (5.50 / 4)

who brushes aside American babies forcibly deprived of their mothers' breasts and suffering severe dehydration as a mere "angle."

The child-care angle seems to be a play for the heartstrings of the left, and one meeting with considerable success, it seems.

Curious, indeed. Is this related to Katrina's dying-people-on-rooftops "angle?"

But should we simply NOT enforce deportation at all?

I think I'm going to have to ask you to blockquote whatever you're referring to. I'm unable to find anyone suggesting the end of all immigration enforcement.

News reports said that 60 illegal immigrants were released immediately after the New Bedford raid simply because they affirmed that they were the sole care-givers to children.

Other children were ripped away from their care-givers. How many children not starved for milk are "enough?" I'm just wondering whether you have a cutoff number in mind. As long as we take care of, say, 50, can we leave the rest in an alley?

Most curious.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:33:36 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'll try to be polite but.. (4.00 / 3)

Steve,

You said:

"who brushes aside American babies forcibly deprived of their mothers' breasts and suffering severe dehydration"

Your are engaging in hyperbole and vent. Why do I say that?  First: Where are they? I  haven't seen any severely dehydrated babies. Second: Even if there were dehydrated babies, why can't somebody think broadly enough feed them a bottle of infant formula?  It doesn't prove that the situation the fault of ICE, or DSS, or others.  This doesn't require deep knowledge or deep pockets to feed a baby a bottle.

The kind of hysterical claim you are making is just going over the top with emotion and hyperbole at the expense of a substantive discussion of important questions. There are over-arching issues regarding immigration raised by this raid.  Chiefly these are what should be national policy toward stopping our chronic illegal immigration and also our policy toward the millions of illegal immigrants who are here already. 
Regarding the quote I didn't blockquote, I apologize, but I'm not just Red I'm new here. I'll try to do it right this time. Anthony said in 6.00 / 3 :

Immigration is too big of an issue to try to narrow down the focus merely to enforcing deportation.  That is why it is vital that someone who knows what they are doing is in charge.

The question is should we just give up altogether on deportation?  Some Blues, I believe, think so.  I don't. Some Reds think wholesale deportation is fine. I think a certain amount might serve as a disincentive to illegal immigration, but moving 12 million illegal immigrants back to their country of origin is infeasible. Something needs to be done consistent with an articulated policy, though. It is a policy issue.  Emoting hysterically about dehydrated babies does not advance the discussion of these issues.

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by: SquaringTheGlobe @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 13:10:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks so much (0.00 / 0)

for "trying to be polite:"

Your are engaging in hyperbole and vent. Why do I say that?  First: Where are they? I  haven't seen any severely dehydrated babies.

In the effort to "be polite," mayhap before you accuse someone of "hyperbole and vent," it might behoove you to pause anon and ponder whether you have the vaguest idea what the hell you are talking about:

Two young children were hospitalized today for dehydration after their nursing mothers were taken away, state officials said.

Most people regard any malady requiring hospitalization as "severe." But YMMV.

Emoting hysterically about dehydrated babies does not advance the discussion of these issues.

Hysteria is no longer regarded as a distinct dysfunction among modern psychotherapists.

Denial still is.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:24:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Respectfully, no. (6.00 / 3)

The important issue is that, regardless of what the current policy is, or what the ideal policy should be, we need competent people carrying it out.  The fiasco in New Bedford shows pretty clearly that, at present, we don't have that.

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by: David @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:47:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

One observation about the blame being heaped on immigration agents (5.00 / 1)

We have seen how many stories about the failures of DSS in Mass?  Maybe 5 or 6 in the past year. 

It is not out of the realm of possibilities that the DSS screwed up not the immigration agents. 

Right now we have conflict stories of he said, she said.  Until this is sorted out it is a little early to be putting this much criticism on the immigration agents.  The agents are just another group of hard working Americans, do you believe they would intentionally ignore the peril of the children in this case?

Perhaps we should wait for the facts to straightened out before we go around accusing the agents of infanticide.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:51:46 AM CST

A Good Idea, JK (0.00 / 0)

That's a fine suggestion, JK.  I agree completely. 

Maybe you Blue folks can get the Governor to agree, too. 

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by: SquaringTheGlobe @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:56:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Please don't call me "blue" (0.00 / 0)

I am not a democrat or liberal.  I am a conservative that likes knowing how the "other side" thinks and discussing the issues with them.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:28:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Some facts ... (5.00 / 1)

From the Globe

By yesterday afternoon, 29 children of detained parents had been placed in foster care, according to the state Department of Health and Human Services.

So we know as of the afternoon there were 29 displaced children, no word yet about what they found by the evening. So another way of putting it ICE was full of sh*t in their response.

Immigration laws and being here illegally is not the question here, we need to follow the laws that we have today.  If we don't like them then they can be fought to be changed.  Agreed.

It's about knowing what the hell you are doing.  Having hacks that have absolutely no idea of what they are doing is the continual problem.  Why does this keep happening over and over?

Why isn't the Herald posting the square footage of the company owner's house that he built on the backs of illegal workers?  Why are their doors still open?  Why the F do they still have an 83 million dollar government contract????

The real reason we have the illegal immigration problem are companies like this who make their profits by these illegal sweatshops.  Deval Patrick said it during the debates, illegal immigrants don't come here for drivers licenses or tuition, they come here for jobs!  If there was a federal crackdown on these employers with jail time and/or heavy fines do you think there would be a problem?  As long as we allow the meat packing plants, etc who have stayed open to continue then this is not getting solved.

Yes, immigration needs to do it's job, but doing these crackdowns on exploited workers with no power whatsoever might make of the electorate happy, but it does nothing to solve the problem.

Listening to Charlie Baker talk about fiscal responsibility is like getting lectured on abstinence from Paris Hilton - Tim Murray

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by: johnk @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:37:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

So... (6.00 / 1)

I guess I better start bringing a shotgun when I go to the Boston Commons, in case of bears. You know, because it's important to follow all laws, no matter how stupid they are and how few people follow them too.

The fact is we have hundreds, maybe thousands, of laws on our books that are so insane, archaic or otherwise stupid that *no one* follows them. A lot of the current immigration laws fall into that catagory: they're simply impossible to enforce and do more harm than good.

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:45:35 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You're watering it down (6.00 / 1)

To give an excuse as there are dumb laws on the books as a reason for this doesn't give it the proper discussion it deserves.

Immigration?  Hey, what do you expect from a state where you can't eat more than three sandwiches at a wake. 

Siss Boom Bah.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

Listening to Charlie Baker talk about fiscal responsibility is like getting lectured on abstinence from Paris Hilton - Tim Murray

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by: johnk @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:13:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Interesting.... (6.00 / 3)

....concept.

Perhaps we should wait for the facts to straightened out before we go around accusing the agents of infanticide.

First off, no one has been accused of infanticide, so the hyperbole is more than a little over the top?

Secondly, in your previous posts on other issues you give no defference to waiting for complete facts before jumping all over the Governor.  So can I assume that you are espousing a new policy of waiting for full info before commenting on all issues, or just on issues for un-elected, uncomfirmed, hack republican appointees?

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:36:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Perhaps a little over the top with infanticide (0.00 / 0)

But I am referring to the actual agents who carried this out.  Not the hack that is the head of the agency.  The agents are just people doing their job, just like you and me.  The are outside of the political hackery at the head of the agency.  What I have asked is that we apply a little Occam's razor to this situation.  Here are the two scenarios 1)ICE agents informed DSS of the raid and the need for assistance and DSS screwed up as we have seen in the past or 2)ICE agents paid no mind to the fact that the illegal immigrants have children that require care, nor did they even care about that.

And when did I not jump all over the Governor without the facts already being known?

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 11:27:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It's really inappropriate of you (0.00 / 0)

to comment in such a well-assembled diary with such half-assed obfuscations.

Homeland Security refused access to social workers. Not DSS. That is not under debate.

Homeland Security bundled all these people off on a plane to Texas. Not DSS. That is not under debate.

Homeland Security leadership made all these decisions. Not DSS. And not the "agents" you would like to hide behind. That is not under debate.

I know that your goal is to distract from Republican malfeasance by baffling us with bullshit, making us play whack-a-mole with concocted conspiracy theories, and generally obfuscating things that aren't at all obscure. We recognize that. That's why it doesn't work any more, and you're going to have to play all by yourself.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:37:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I hope (6.00 / 1)

I hope Steverino that you can back that up!

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by: KBusch @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:58:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Of course he won't (2.00 / 2)

Steverino is more interested in throwing together the well written insults that he thinks is a demonstration of his superior brain power.  Facts are something he just doesn't have time to address while doing this.  He is much more interested in insulting those who don't walk lockstep with his position.

You think we you wait to find out who is telling the truth between ICE and DSS = you're a just participating in distracting "Republican malfeasance by baffling us with bullshit, making us play whack-a-mole with concocted conspiracy theories, and generally obfuscating things that aren't at all obscure"

You think Deval did something that gives the appearance of a conflict of interest = you get "Let us set aside the fact that you, like JK, are totally making up the content and circumstances of the call to suit your argument" or "Do you imagine these rambling, ungrammatical strings of unsupported opinions are of interest to anyone?" or he just gives you a zero.

And the big one, say there are other theories for current observed climate change then it was caused by man = you're told "Instead, why don't you move past the lies?" and other insults instead of actually engaging in the discussion.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:11:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm afraid, JK (0.00 / 0)

You misread my sarcasm.

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by: KBusch @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:57:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I already set him straight (0.00 / 0)

below.

All with quotes and links that had already been published before all of his yipping started.

JK, like most nonserious conservatives today, often falls headlong to a logical fallacy that says, "If I haven't heard it, it must not be true." This is known as the argument from ignorance, which, in his case, seems to afford him an almost infinite resource to argue from.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 22:29:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Always love the "debate is over" argument from you steverino (0.00 / 0)

Could you please backup any of the assertions you have made.

"Homeland Security refused access to social workers. Not DSS.  That is not under debate."  This statement is in contradiction to the information being reported.  From Boston.com;

Immigration agents "worked closely with DSS both before the operation commenced and at every stage of the operation, to be sure that no child would be without a sole caregiver," Julie L. Myers , the assistant secretary of homeland security, wrote in a letter to Patrick.

What I have said is that we should wait for the information to be sorted out. 

And as usual, you go for personal attacks.  Never sticking to the facts of what people have posted by trying to attack them personally.  Why do you assume that because I am a conservative I have some sort of vested interest in the Republican party?  I hate the Republican Party.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 13:05:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Cut the bull (6.00 / 1)

State officials for the first time received a complete list of the names, addresses and birth dates of all the people in custody, Patrick said.

NEW BEDFORD -- Massachusetts social workers will travel to a Texas detention center to check on scores of workers from New Bedford accused of being in the country illegally. They were flown there before Massachusetts authorities determined whether all their children were receiving adequate care.

....

Patrick, at a press conference, and later in a private conference call with Homeland Security officials, protested the decision to fly 90 of the detained workers from Massachusetts to Harlingen, Texas, before state social workers had a chance to inquire about their child-care needs, potentially leaving many children with inadequate care.

NEW BEDFORD -- Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff yesterday gave assurances that state Department of Social Services workers will be allowed to visit illegal immigrants who are being detained at Fort Devens

Feel free to keep expressing your newfound "concern" about "waiting" for "all the facts," or "speculating" what "Occam's razor" might reveal--or whatever other pretense you feel will help obscure the crime.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:01:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

7 year old called hotline to find mother (6.00 / 1)

Quoted in the Globe.

More from Globe/Patrick:

Five children and two mothers are among the people being released Friday, he said.

"Our focus is on the children and those other vulnerable people who were affected by this," he said. "It is a humanitarian crisis and it is not over yet."

Nine other people who were among the 361 rounded up Tuesday also will be released, he said, without providing details of why.

Four of the children were being held in Florida, and a mother and her child were being held in Pennsylvania. Patrick said they would be returned Friday, but didn't say how.

Another mother was located in Texas after her 7-year-old child called a hotline that state officials created to reunite families. She also was to be returned Friday, Patrick said.

State officials for the first time received a complete list of the names, addresses and birth dates of all the people in custody, Patrick said.

Doesn't sound like much in the way of cooperation during the raid to me.

Listening to Charlie Baker talk about fiscal responsibility is like getting lectured on abstinence from Paris Hilton - Tim Murray

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by: johnk @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:03:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Are you aware... (0.00 / 0)

....of how much the Governor's office will be spending in total for his first year in office?  I'm not.  You likeley are not.  Yet you seem to have no problem picking apart individual line items purchased for his office and casting him as a profligate spender.  Why not wait for all the facts before criticizing?

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 13:51:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually it was reported that he will be spending more than Romney (0.00 / 0)

So yes I do.

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by: EaBoClipper @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 13:54:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It was reported... (0.00 / 0)

...that he will be spending more than romney is not the same thing as waiting to see how the facts develop, so no, you don't.

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 14:01:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Are you kidding??? (0.00 / 0)

I need to know how much he will spend in total to question the choice of the Cadillac (by the way I concluded that was a manufactured story in previous posts) over a less costly alternative, to question the spending of $10-12K on drapes (by the way I didn't), or the high pay for a new position of a scheduler for his wife that was given to a campaign supporter (this I had a big issue with because it appears to be nepotisms, which I hate from either party)?

I will go further.  I also criticized him over the Citigroup story based on the appearance of a conflict of interest.  The exact nature of the conversation is not paramount to the appearance of the conflict of interest and Deval admits he made the call. 

I have also criticized the governor for what I deemed a smoke screen about his raising the drop out age.  I did this based on statistics reported by the DOE.  I later retracted this when GGW explained why the "dropout rate" was not a good statistic to use when discussing, well, the dropout rate.  My mistake.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 14:02:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, by the standard... (0.00 / 0)

...that you proposed, you need to wait for the full story to develop.  By your own admission you have not even been in the habit of doing so since you have had to retract or change your initial assessments on some of the issues that you list above.  So, don't advocate waiting for full story development when it conveniently suits your position if it is not your general practice.

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 14:15:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're reaching (0.00 / 0)

In this story ICE and the DSS are saying opposite and conflicting things.

In my criticism of the governor this was not the case.  He did not dispute having the caddy or that a cheaper alternative was available, he did not dispute that he spent the money on remodeling the office, he did not dispute the hiring of the scheduler for his wife, he did not dispute making the call to Citigroup.

In the case of the dropout rate criticize perhaps you have a case.  I apologize for not knowing that the "dropout rate" as reported by the MADOE is not indicative of the dropout rate.  I put this in the honest mistake category.  When GGW explained the issue and gave me the information that insiders use to judge the dropout rate, I came back off of my original criticism of Deval.

You are trying to play a little "gotcha" here.  While there maybe other subjects I have posted about where I could be open to this criticism, the one you chose is not.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 14:40:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Are you suggesting... (0.00 / 0)

...that you yourself live up to the standards that you have laid out in connection with this story?  I am not playing gotcha.  I am pointing out what appears to be hypocrisy on your part.  I have no interest in combing through all of your posts to prove my point because it is not necessary.  You pounce on stories like everyone else around here with the information that is available when the story breaks, regardless of conflicting details and state your views.  Now, because it is convenient for your argument to do so, you counseled those who disagreed with you to moderate their responses in deference to the developing nature of the story.  If your call for a more moderate approach best decribes how you will comport yourself in the future, I look forward to congratulating you on living up to your own standards.  If not, I stand by my comments.

 

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 14:59:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The "developing nature" (0.00 / 0)

of the story is manufacture horsehockey, at least as far as JK's fair and balanced spin is concerned.

HS and DSS are not disagreeing on whether social workers had a chance to interview detainees before they are arrested. Both agree they were not. HS is defending this decision, not running from it.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:04:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The problem that you have is... (6.00 / 1)

...just who is a hack?

It's a serious issue--it really is.  Just who is a hack.

By many accounts, Bush's FEMA heads, former federal judge Michael Chertoff and Michael "Brownie" Brown were incompetent.  They were hacks.  By many accounts, BClinton's FEMA head, Jamie Lee Witt, was a very competent administrator.  And he was a "hack," too.  He had worked for the Arkansaw state government while Clinton was governor (I almost wrote "he worked with Clinton") as head of its emergency management system; Clinton obviousley suspected that he was competent and so he appointed him to be the head of FEMA when he was elected to be president.

The issue isn't hackery--political relationships.  The issue is experience and proven ability in getting the job done.  The point, that even Ms. Porcupine might, but probably won't, acknowledge is that there is a difference.

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by: raj @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 08:53:02 AM CST

I think the issue is both (6.00 / 3)

that is, political relationship plus the absence of competence =  hackery.

Quite right that FEMA, which had become a cesspool of Republican patronage under GHW Bush, was turned around under Clinton. Junior, alas, reverted to form.

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by: Trickle up @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:25:16 AM CST

[ Parent ]

How do you define "hack"? (6.00 / 1)

Are you using the term simply to mean someone whose job experience is in government rather than private industry? I don't think that's the problem--it's people whose sole qualification is a relationship based on social ties rather than professional competence. The fact that Clinton had a working relationship with Witt does not make him a crony--indeed, a working relationship with someone is the best way for a supervisor to judge that person's competence.

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by: Alice in Florida @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:41:51 AM CST

[ Parent ]

True, but... (0.00 / 0)

...if you listen to right-wing talk radio--such as Howie Carr--it appears that anyone who gets his government job through political connections is a hack.  Regardless of how competent he is.  That was the reason for my Jamie Lee Witt example.

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by: raj @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 16:29:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

How do you know it's a lie? (5.00 / 1)

@David

You claim Myers is lying about working closely with DSS, and you base that on criticisms of her at the time of her appointment.  But, the criticisms stemmed from their prediction that she wouldn't lead the agency in enforcing immigration law. I think this action is not an "I told you so" moment for those critics.

As for cronyism and inexperience -- with a different spin those become "trusted" and "outsider". With all the defense  oriented comments on BMG regarding Patrick and his cronyistic, inexperienced staff, you should have learned that it's a weak partisan argument.

Arguing against the outcome is one thing, but blaming it all on Myers because of prejudicial punditry (that is judging her performance before she has the job) seems a extreme. With all the bad press earned by the DSS this past year, I believe at least part of the responsibility is more local than locals want to believe.

Why wasn't DSS at Fort Devens in advance of the action -- ready and waiting to process people?

How many are scrambling now to find children -- any children -- to claim as their own so that they can back into MA and back into hiding? If I were in their situation, I know that's what I'd be thinking. It's a shame that people are pushed to illegal action. It's an outrage that the owners aren't in a jail cell at this very moment.

However, I do not buy into the argument put forward by Delahunt that these people fear the federal government more than the state government and that is supposed to explain why some of the detainees didn't tell officials about their children when asked. Delahunt would have you believe it's because they have fled "a history of violence against women and a history of a government being repressive". I believe people withheld information not out of fear, but because of knowledge -- knowledge that they know its the feds who have the authority to deport and knowledge that Patrick is not warm to the idea of having state authorities be a part of enforcement. If DSS officials find children, spouses or other family members who are also here illegally, will they be informing the feds? Doubtful.

There are a lot of problems with our immigration laws. It's a problem that we convey citizenship to anyone born within our borders. It's a problem that there hasn't been more enforcement of laws to both discourage criminal acts by employers and encourage would-be immigrants to go through legal access into this country. But it's also a problem that New Bedford's unemployment rate for December was almost 25% than that of the state. Where's the empathy for those families?

Previous signature had been getting more attention than my comments. Removed out of jealousy.

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by: dweir @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:20:59 AM CST

"It's a problem that we convey citizenship to anyone born within our borders." (6.00 / 1)

Well, you'll have to take that one up with the drafters of the 14th amendment.

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by: David @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:23:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

If it's not a lie (0.00 / 0)

that's even worse, because then it's just pure incompetence, miscommunication, ineptitude and ignorance all wrapped up into one. Fugly.

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:30:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

And (4.00 / 2)

That wouldn't be different then other instances of "pure incompetence, miscommunication, ineptitude and ignorance" we have witnessed in the recent past from the DSS.

Way too early to blame anyone for this mess.

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:33:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Even if DSS did anything wrong (0.00 / 0)

You couldn't blame them in this situation. The feds forced them to really do a lot, in a small time, when the feds could have bent a little and taken the whole process a lot slower.

Your argument fails to get off the ground in either case.

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:47:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Blame (0.00 / 0)

Even if DSS did anything wrong you couldn't blame them in this situation.

Gotta love it.

Ryan, you have no idea how long this process has been going on, when the DSS was first contacted by the feds, and what the DSS did to prepare for the raid.  If it was a "small time", the DSS has certainly shown that they can act quickly. Heck, several of them just got a business trip to Texas in less than 24 hours. How many citizens of MA will not be seeing their DSS representative this week because they are in Texas?

When it comes to providing the "social service" aspect of this operation, the buck stops with the "social service" agency.

Previous signature had been getting more attention than my comments. Removed out of jealousy.

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by: dweir @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:40:25 AM CST

[ Parent ]

wait a minute (0.00 / 0)

You just infered they were incompetent, or at least found them wanting. Now they're great at responding quickly? Um... which is it?

---
My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:53:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'll diagram this for you (0.00 / 0)

Ryan's logic:
Can't blame the DSS because the feds didn't give them enough time.

Dweir's response:
The DSS has just demonstrated that they can respond in a short amount of time by mobilizing a team to go to Texas.

I'll make this a bit clearer.

The DSS has demonstrated "issues". I'm not stretching this claim to state reasons to explain this away as incompetence. I am making a judgement based on substantiated reports of neglect, abuse, and death of children while under care & custody of the DSS and some anecdotal evidence provided by people who have worked with or for the agency. It's results I'm basing this on, not personnel.

I'll take this a step further: the responsiveness or quality of performance of the DSS seems to be related to the amount of press coverage they are getting. No surprise that they were able to get a team to Texas when all eyes were on them. It takes no more skill to do that than to have gotten that same to Ft. Devens.

I conclude that this is an agency that would benefit from more scrutiny. By the very nature of its business, which must balance privacy concerns more than other agencies, it is easier to mask problems which might otherwise be more readily identified by an investigative reporter, an inquisitive legislator, or a demanding public. Making up excuses for their poor peformance (which you did by passing the blame to the feds) contributes to the problem.

 

Previous signature had been getting more attention than my comments. Removed out of jealousy.

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by: dweir @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 11:32:24 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'll respond to the rest of your post (0.00 / 0)

When you acknowledge my initial comment, that spawned your first reply here, was in response to this from JK:

That wouldn't be different then other instances of "pure incompetence, miscommunication, ineptitude and ignorance" we have witnessed in the recent past from the DSS.

You decided to jump in a converstation that wasn't your own. Therefore, you don't get to make up the rules as to what your comments reflect - picking off my comments, when they were simply meant to refute others.

JK said that DSS was incompetent, etc. If DSS were so incompetent, they wouldn't have been able to respond in the ways that they have thus far. Your words don't exist within a bubble, especially if you're jumping into an existing conversation.

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:10:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Biting my tongue (0.00 / 1)

@Ryan
"a conversation that wasn't my own"?! I'll throw you a bone and say that even makes sense.  It's my comment at the top of this subthread... so there.  It is my comment. You, dear sir, jumped into my conversation, not the other way round.  :-)

I didn't reply to your claim of incompetence because JK already answered it quite well.  What do you want me to say "ditto"?

But later in the thread, I did address it. Here it is diagramed for you:

dweir:  How do you know it's a lie?
ryan:  If it isn't a lie it's even worse! It shows the feds are incompetent.
jk: How do you know it isn't the DSS who are incompetent?
ryan: If DSS failed, it's the feds fault!
dweir: The responsibility for the "social service" aspect of the operation rests with the DSS.

Now, you might want to argue that the feds are ultimately responsible because they initiated, or have certain jurisdiction, or wear better suits. You might want to say, the DSS has an excellent track record and this failure is only because the feds were involved. But you don't do that.  Instead:

ryan: I'm confused.
dweir: Yes.

But, you're still a nice person.

Previous signature had been getting more attention than my comments. Removed out of jealousy.

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by: dweir @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:33:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

dweir's main point still stands (2.50 / 2)

you don't know how long the process was.  Nor DSS's involvement and when. 

"The Liver is evil and must be punished" - W.C. Fields

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by: JK @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 11:30:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

laziest blog ever! (0.00 / 0)

Okay, totally kidding. That rocked... citizen journalism at its best! Great diary David. I love when you do a little google digging. LOL.

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:28:57 AM CST

Um, I don't know if I'm going to have to beat some of you over the head like the proverbial donkey with a 2x4, but the issue is... (5.00 / 1)

...why were these people taken into detention in the first place, pending an immigration hearing, instead of being left to do what they were doing, and putting a little ankle bracelet on them to ensure that they would show up for their immigration hearing?

That's the real issue, isn't it?  To be able to tail people to ensure that they show up at their immigration hearing.

Quite frankly, the same could be said of bail in a criminal case, but I'll avoid that issue for now.

Someone wanted to disrupt the operations of this company, and it is probable that they did so.  I am interested in knowing who wanted to do so and why.  It's fairly obvious that the children are secondary in all this--they always are (a sad fact that the "fam'ly values crowd never mention)--but someone wanted to disrupt the operations of the company.

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by: raj @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 09:52:57 AM CST

Raj raises important points in "Just who is a hack?" as does David in this post-thnx (6.00 / 1)

On a related note, the below update is for those of you/us who also think/act on the community level as these kinds of things happen; it's an update from an activist that was forwarded to me this morning and I think many BMG readers might take action on some of the items included.  Sorry I don't have the ability to shorten it and make a link but it came as an email to me.

March 9, 2007
Fwd: Update on New Bedford Families

  I am writing because many of you had asked for an update after I attended the emergency organizing meeting last night for the New BEdford families, that took place in East Boston.  For those of you that didn't request an update, please let me know if you do not want to receive these emails.

  So, there were probably over 100 organizers at last night's meeting. Needless to say, there were many opinions expressed, and I will highlight the most important pieces that I took away from the meeting, in regards to the role that I can play in supporting these families and community.  Also, there are still many questions as this is still fresh and somewhat chaotic.  I felt very inspired, though, by the strong presence of community organizations, with many creative and dedicated leaders.  There was a lot of energy in the room, and great ideas about how to pressure the local and federal governments to release the over 200 women, who have been sent to detention in Texas.  Also, my understanding is that there are still women detained who are primary caregivers - as the raid was chaotic, and names of various lists did not match up.

  MIRA [MA Immigrant & Refugee Advocacy Coalition] is the central location for information. Please continue checking the MIRA website for ways to become involved and to pressure the government.  One organizer said that a federal official (I think it was a congressman) told him that for every pro-immigrant phone call he receives they receive 1000 anti-immigrant calls.

  1. From what I understood - sound like the call for Mental health professionals has been answered.  Latin American Health Institute at BRockton has been active - and a MIRA rep did not express the need for more help on this front.  I would encourage all of us, however, to continue checking the MIRA website.  Also, DSS has been involved, and sounds like the team sent over was culturally matched (as best possible) - and that they were trying their best to serve the families with ICE officials standing over their shoulders, and the understandable fear of DSS that many families have.

  Also, MIRA rep said that there are enough volunteers at the church in New Bedford, and that actually, they have more than they can handle.  With that said - needs are highlighted below.

  2. Need for Lawyers! ---

  3. Need for Money! --- go to MIRA to donate... This money will go to towards immediate humanitarian aid, but will also go towards long-term needs like legal services.

  4. Need for material goods like diapers, formula, winter baby clothes - see the Mira website for information about donations.

  5. Press Conference Monday at 11:00 at City Hall....

  6. Vigil on Wednesday, the 14th at 7:00 - Church of the Holy Redeemer (not sure where this is.)

  The raid on the factory at New Bedford has made national press - and according to organizers last night is an especially big deal because its one of the largest raids targeting women.  Plans are being made to get the support of local politicians and the governors office - but we need to pressure the federal government, namely our congressional delegation and ICE.

  There should be clear instructions soon on the website of how to support this movement calling for the release of the over 200 women who have been sent to detention in Texas.

  Ok, hope this is helpful.
  Take Care,
  Celeste

To stay informed and for ways to help visit the Mass. Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition at MIRA.

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by: AnnEM @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:05:54 AM CST

No Secret (6.00 / 2)

New Bedford is the #1 money fishing port in the U.S. and in the top 5 internationally. Textile died in New Bedford in the 1950's. Then 2 years ago Michael Bianco gets an 80 million plus federal contract. In a depressed city like New Bedford this is big news. Strangely there is very little news in the local media about this contract when it is awarded. Then 2 years ago Michael Bianco gets $57,000 in tax breaks from the New Bedford EDC. Other local companies need these TIF's more, but the EDC gives them to a company just awarded the largest contract New Bedford has seen in decades. The illegal labor practices taking place at Michal Bianco's were no secret in New Bedford.

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by: Njord @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:10:39 AM CST

Indeed, (0.00 / 0)

I don't know about the contract and those other issues, but the fact that there were these illegal immigrants was indeed no secret at all.

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:13:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

the timing of it all (0.00 / 0)

Bush is currently in South America, and was already being met by angry crowds.  I wonder if and how all this will play down there.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

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by: Laurel @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 11:03:43 AM CST

Hopefully He'll Greet them (0.00 / 0)

Hopefully he'll greet the plane, say "Welcome Home, the US Embassy is over there.  You can wait in line like everybody else."

But alas he won't.

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by: EaBoClipper @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:18:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

you must be terribly disappointed in your leader n/t (6.00 / 1)

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

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by: Laurel @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 13:52:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hack's in Important Govt. Jobs (0.00 / 0)

On the other hand, you have to love it when the Repuplican stratagy of deliberate incompetance for the purpose of underming the faith of the general puplic in government bites them square in the ass with there right wing followers. It would actually be funny if the human consequencwe were not so severe.

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by: red eddie @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:13:00 PM CST

ILLEGAL ALIENS (4.00 / 1)

What I cannot comprehend is the fact that few  people on the left will admit that these people are here unlawfully. They have no legal standing.

Because that idiot in the White House has kith and kin that are hispanic he seems to have made it his personal mandate to open our borders to whomever. Some one alluded that this laizzes faire attitude re anything will come back to bite the republicans in the azz. This will come back and bite each and everyone in the azz. Americans per se are the most ignorant and ill educated people on this planet. If anyone in this country was remotely aware of the possible disintegration of Canada and how it came about, perhaps they would get the message---although I hardly think it possible. Americans remember something happened in NYC in September a few years back; however they would be hard pressed to remember exactly what the fuss was about.

We are becoming a country of selectively enforced laws. There are segments of our society whom laws are no longer applicable.Personally I want to do as I damn well please. If the laws are not applicable to the illegal aliens----then no law is applicable to ME! 

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by: MCRD @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:52:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Talk about remote awareness (5.00 / 1)

If anyone in this country was remotely aware of the possible disintegration of Canada and how it came about

Are you suggesting the Quebecois are immigrants?

I'll wait for the answer before commenting on the irony of your post.

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by: steverino @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:06:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I defy you to find... (5.00 / 1)

...one post in this thread where anyone claims that none of the people detained are not here in violation of immigration laws.  The contention is with this statement you made:

They have no legal standing.

Which is patently false.  All human beings within the borders of These United States have legal standing.

You have no concept of what it truly means to be an American citizen, so I suppose that conversely, you can't possibly understand what it means not to be one.

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:14:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Small nitpick (5.00 / 1)

"Legal standing" kinda always need a prepositional phrase after it.

Legal standing to sue, legal standing to initiate a lawsuit....

If you walk up to someone on the street and say "you have no legal standing," then you've said something that makes no sense. 

It's quite possible that someone within the US may have no legal standing with respect to some matter, and it's quite possible for someone outside the US, and a non-citizen, to HAVE legal standing to initiate some sort of lawsuit.

Carry on.

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by: gary @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:23:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

True enough... (5.00 / 1)

what you say, re: legal standing.  Context is generally required, except perhaps in this situation where it was emphatically stated that undocumented immigrants lack all discernible legal standing, which clearly, they do not.

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:32:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Maybe (0.00 / 0)

Does an illegal aliens have legal standing to redress their disagreement with US immigration law in the courts?

I don't know. Perhaps a Constitutional Guy can opine?

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by: gary @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 16:26:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes.... (0.00 / 0)

...indeed.  Such cases have even made it all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States.  (And that is but one, particularly interesting example)

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by: anthony @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 18:20:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hacks? (3.00 / 1)

Forget about our national hacks. Look at beacon Hill.
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is analogous to a dead cow in August crawling with maggot, except there are more maggots(hacks) on Beacon Hill. You should have seen the phone directory for the Big Dig back in 1999. It was a who's Who of genealogical lineage of the state house. Some family by the name of Donnely has judges, clerks of court, board of probation employees and prosecutors on the public tit and they ain't republicans. Massport, the MBTA, and the Turnpike Authority are suffused with uncles, cousins, brothers and sisters on the dole. Now there are some HACKS. Some of these entire families have never had a job in the dreaded public sector. It's sickening!

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by: MCRD @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 15:21:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Some people's families... (0.00 / 0)

Regular Massachusetts public servants live in their own world of nepotism.  "So now, me lad, who got you this job?" 

I noticed court system is incestuous about 40 years ago.  So, it hasn't changed and two generations have gone by.  Would the new employees have pink eyes by any chance? 

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by: Dana Knight @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 16:42:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't know whether or not you know this, but... (0.00 / 0)

...the fact is that even in private industry when a company needs to have a particular job slot filled they oftentimes send out a note asking if anyone knows of someone who can fill the slot.  It saves time and effort to make a "nationwide search" just for someone who can fill a rather mundane slot.

I put your comment regarding "nepotism" pretty much in that category.  "Yeah, my brother-in-law can fill the 3d assistant clerk's slot.  I'll get him in here for an interview."

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by: raj @ Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 04:08:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Standing to do what?... (0.00 / 0)

...I hate to tell you, but the fact is that in legal circles "standing" is a term of art.  So just what do you mean when you say that

They have no legal standing?

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by: raj @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 16:18:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Is our government is based on hacks? (0.00 / 0)

I'd love to blame the Republicans for all the hacks in government.  Alas, I have found a few Democrats that are in appointed service acting very much as the Republican hacks.  Believe it or don't!

Perhaps it is just that the Republicans are hacks and the Democrats just try to show us by example how hackery looks.  They do a good job.  Or, maybe the whole system is filled with hacks.  Why do those people you see holding signs at election day wind up walking the corridors of the state office buildings?  Is one man's hack another's faithful public servant?

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by: Mae Bee @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:57:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The smart hack... (0.00 / 0)

.. can at least get someone else to take the fall.  It is amazing that Undersecretary David Chu is able to get generals to fall on their swords over the care of wounded soldiers.  Mr. Chu's policies (that I assume the generals were carrying out) were noted years ago and have yet to be mentioned in this latest flap.

More here:

http://americansfors...

Teflon:  Not for pots and pans anymore.

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by: Knott Miwatch @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 13:20:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Real leadership (6.00 / 1)

I will say that we have seen real local leadership on this subject.  Scott Lang, mayor of New Bedford, has been thoughtful and nuanced throughout this episode.  one choice quote: "Shipping [detainees] to the Southwest is completely inhumane, unduly harsh and presents a negative image for our local, state and national government"

In the same light, Deval has reminded lots of folks why he received so much love during the campaign.  Meeting with the families of the "detained" for an hour at Our Lady church and quite correctly calling this a "human tragedy" showed him at his best.  I hold my doubts about his managerial, but at a moment like this Deval's other leadership qualities are clear.

It's an issue that (once again) makes me ashamed to be from the Untied States, and at the same time proud to be from Massachusetts.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...

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by: sabutai @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 19:55:20 PM CST