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Random thoughts from the Debate

by: Bob Neer

Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 02:39:14 AM EST


Wolf Blizter is a muppet. It is amazing to me that some people maintain bloggers are not journalists, while crediting creatures like Blitzer with the worthy title. He appeared confused; asked aimless "color" questions; rarely pushed the candidates into anything resembling an actual debate; and seemed to have only a vague grasp of the major issues. One can find tougher questions, better analysis, and more substantive information in 30 minutes on the internet than in a full day of CNN.

Where was Mike Gravel? If they are going to put Kucinich on stage for comic relief, why not Gravel as well. The ostensible reason was that he hasn't raised enough money. Does anyone else find it ironic that Kucinich, who normally rants with the best of them about the corrupting influence of money in politics and the importance of giving a platform to fringe candidates, chose to participate despite Gravel's exclusion.

Calling Senator Clinton, "Hillary," while everyone else normally is addressed by an honorific and their family name, grates every time I hear it. I think it's sexist: she's a girl, first name will do. Grown up names for the men. On the other hand, Senator Clinton has chosen, "Hillary," for her campaign branding, so maybe she has brought it on herself.

My conclusions: Clinton and Obama sounded Presidential and did very well. I saw nothing to change my opinion of Edwards as a lightweight (set when he got crushed by Cheney in the Vice-Presidential debate). Richardson did enormously better than in past appearances (for example, his miserable effort on The Daily Show), but his self-deprecation is no longer cute: we're voting for a President. Dodd is my pick for Most Improved: he was impressive and well informed -- why doesn't he have more traction? Biden loves to hear himself talk. I guess it really is true that every U.S. Senator who looks in a mirror sees a President. Appearances can be deceiving.

Bob Neer :: Random thoughts from the Debate
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Good Job (0.00 / 0)
Good overview and take on the debate. And you are correct - voters in New York State have elected her twice  - it's Senator Clinton.

Campaign branding (Obama's logo is just his last name - did Wolf just call bim Obama when addressing him?) has nothing to do with it. Elected officials earned their office from the voters. I think it shows a lack of respect for the voters when you disregard the title when addressing them in a formal setting. And with Senator Clinton it is clearly because she is a "girl candidate".


Thought it was just me. (0.00 / 0)
I find the 'Hillary' thing INCREDIBLY disrespectful - but, she may have indicted a preference, as saying 'Clinton' brings up mental images of...oh, I don't know...fill in the blank yourself with the relevant cheeseburger-eater image.  which may be what she wan't to avaoid.

And Bob - you are HARD.  Dick Cheney ain't no Dan Quayle, ya know.  He can crush pretty much anybody.  We can all find our own reasons to despise John Edwards.

Yr. Obedient Servant, Peter Porcupine, Republican


[ Parent ]
the branding is a benefit (0.00 / 0)
She was "Hillary" long before she was Senator Clinton.

None of the other guys on the stage have that cachet. She's got a brand and, like it or loathe it, strong branding is a big asset.

You may think it's disrespectful or condescending--and if you really want to pick nits, it may be--but if I was one of Hillary's people, I'd love that she's addressed in a way that positions her as not just another Senator.

It's disrespectful to voters to have her called Hillary? I think that's going a little beyond the depth this subject deserves.

------------------------------

I am noternie.

More than a full year's worth of blogginess at  Someday I Will.


[ Parent ]
It's a way of standing out from her competitors. (0.00 / 0)
It says, you know me, I'm Hillary, we can skip the formalities.  Like Oprah. 

[ Parent ]
Edwards a lightweight...? (6.00 / 1)
I can't help but agree.  Even when he is trying to be forceful he comes off weak in my mind.  I used to really like him but the fact that he acts like he is the pinnacle of Democratic virtue and straightforwardness, when he has waffled just as much as the rest of them, is annoying.  I do think he does care about poverty genuinely but find a lot of the rest of his views to be canned.  He thinks that just because he's the son of a mill worker and rose up to be a fancy trial lawyer, and still possesses a pronounced drawl means he's automatically authentic in ways the other candidates aren't.  But I just get a sense of depth from him - certainly not like I get from Obama



agree (0.00 / 0)
I do think he does care about poverty genuinely but find a lot of the rest of his views to be canned.  He thinks that just because he's the son of a mill worker and rose up to be a fancy trial lawyer, and still possesses a pronounced drawl means he's automatically authentic in ways the other candidates aren't.

When I first saw Edwards, I think in 2003, my very first that was 'this guy is imitating Bill Clinton'. I actually thought it was a comedy routine.  While I no longer think it comedy I still think that he's  trying to be the second coming of Bill Clinton. (which is odd, to say the least, when running against Bill Clintons wife)  I think the drawl is overly pronounced and have heard variations on it, more or less so that is, depending on to whom he is speaking.  That strikes me as phony.  I don't think he is phony. I agree that he genuinely cares, but it's like he's using his compassion as an excuse for his ambition... which ambition, overrode his smarts some while back.

---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
The only reason (0.00 / 0)
I watched previous debates was because Mike Gravel was there.  Without Gravel, I no longer care to watch.

Yeah, a debate without Gravel (5.00 / 2)
is like an episode of WKRP without Les Nessman.

[ Parent ]
I wish there was a better way to (0.00 / 0)
keep debates from getting unwieldy with too many people vs fairness in giving everyone a chance to shine.  They are informally doing that by stage placement (Clinton usually gets center stage) and time. 

[ Parent ]
Interesting observation. When was the last time that Ms. Clinton or Sen Obama were on the tail ends? (5.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Funny, (0.00 / 0)
but a debate without Mike Gravel is a more like a reheated frozen TV dinner.  It's all mush and you can't distinguish one item from another.

[ Parent ]
I was interested in how they (0.00 / 0)
did or didnt answer the sound bite yes or no questions.  Obama got convoluted answering the drivers license issue -- but basically said he is for them as part of a comprehensive immigration policy.  Kucinich followed him and said pretty much the same thing more succinctly--immediately objecting to the question.  Their answers werent very different except for style.  Dodd may have been surprising when he said that national security is a higher priortity than human rights ---That answer is what will be remembered although he later said that this is a false dichotomy. 

The post debate commentary was ALL about Hillary Clinton.  I consider that demeaning to the other candidates and the seriousness of issues.  It demeans the public to ignore the issues over the popularity contest to this extent.  I can buy it usually but this was too blatant.

Bob -- I get the same feeling about Edwards.  He morphed most of his answers into his stump speech.  He was the only person that I didnt think did very well

Biden may have talked a lot but I think he stuck to relevant points on every issue.

Obama's exchange with Clinton re Social Security was a good exchange for both of them.

Richardson did a great job I think on every opportunity and I notice that he took more time for himself rather than being marginalized. 

I'm OK with Hillary but I hate the spin  that makes the debate all about her.

The other candidates let her off the hook for the Kyl-Liebermann ammendment.


Who should debate? (5.83 / 6)
My take: If you've filed the necessary paperwork in enough states to actually have a shot at winning (that is, if you swept the ballots of all the states you've filed in, you could seize the nomination), you should be in the debate.

Basing it on fundraising is ludicrous. "You don't have enough money to get our free airtime." Bah.

--
If you want to live like a Republican, you better vote like a Democrat.Harry Truman


"You don't have enough money to get our free airtime." (6.00 / 1)
Heh.  That's a great line.

[ Parent ]
It's for wiser people (0.00 / 0)
than me to decide.  I dont know enough about the mechanics and laws of how it would work.  I think I agree with your post.  It is probably also a function of the hosts/sponsors commercial priorities.  Election reform --taking out of the prolonged media market place may help

[ Parent ]
if you're on the ballot you can win (0.00 / 0)
If you've qualified to have people cast a vote for you, haven't you earned the right to have your candidacy considered? Isn't this just the sponsors saying they know better than the folks that set rules for getting on the ballot?

The argument about poll numbers is a farce, too. It's another chicken and egg argument.

I agree with you dcsol. Let them all debate. Great tag line, by the way.

------------------------------

I am noternie.

More than a full year's worth of blogginess at  Someday I Will.


[ Parent ]
Not having watched it, (5.00 / 1)
I of course rely on others to tell me who won.  ;-)  So far, consensus appears to be that Hillary Clinton did well enough to pretty much reverse any ill effects from the last debate.  More or less random sampling: Josh Marshall, Des Moines Register guy David Yepsen, Marc Ambinder at the Atlantic, and even Garance Franke-Ruta (who was brutal on Clinton's Iowa speech) all basically thought Clinton came out on top.

Anyone notice the laugh lines? (5.00 / 1)
Every time someone made a joke, they turned up Hillary's mike and cut the camera to her.  I mean, I know she has a funny laugh but there's no way it's naturally louder than all the other candidates and the whole crowd.  For some reason I couldn't stop noticing it.  Way to go with the storyline CNN.

They y were trying to (6.00 / 2)
make the debate about Hillary as much as possible.  If there is any doubt the single Diamonds vs Pearls question at the end of the debate is pretty indicative.

[ Parent ]
As a conservative, I thought that (1.50 / 2)
Joe Bidden was the winner and the only one that I would even consider voting for ( and may well do so depending on who the Repubs pick).

It is abundantly clear that Bidden has far and away the most experience and actually looks "presidential". His liability is that he's just a little too casual. His sarcasm regarding the "muppets" stifling him while allowing the "favorites" to blather was pretty witty and humorous. None the less, his extensive knowledge of government and foreign affairs in particular was quite impressive. He towers over the favorites when it comes to experience and knowledge. Too bad this is a high school "popularity contest" where capabilites and experience are not the major deciding

Shrillary did perhaps her final ( of four) flip flops on illegal alien DLs. Clearly, her "handlers" in doing damage control influenced her response to the question now with a simple "NO". Bidden also answered a simple "NO" but he he actually means it.

Edwards is still an insincere noveau riche,  tort lawyer ambulance chaser.

Obama has virtually NO experience and it shows. He's selling "hope" and the "together we can" crap that his handler Axelrod used to get him elected as Senator and later to get his other client Deval Patrick elected ( and we've all now seen the results there) - moral of the story? Don't vote based on hope for someone that's clueless

It becomes increasingly apparent that Shrillary is a classic, manipulative, coniving, power crazed individual that will say or do anything to get elected. Unfortunately , this nomination has become a feminist popularity contest with Shrillary getting the nomination with votes from adoring females who have no problem overlooking her carload of baggage and borderline lunatic ideas ( ie. give every anchor baby $5K?).
So Shrillary will most likely be nominated as the next Hubert Humphry also ran in the general election.

I believe that the DNC realizes that Shrillary ( she did the "cackling laugh" again last night which is little bit less annoying than fingernails on a chaulk board) is not electable.
The woman is far too polarizing and its seems that for every woman who thinks she's the greatest, there's another woman who can't stomach her. IMO, any one of the GOP contenders would tear her to shreds in the general election debates. I'm sure they are hoping that she is the nominee.

Then there's always the possibility that the DNC realizes this and at the convention, wheels out 600lb, "Moby" Gore as the nominee to the deafening cheers of moonbats nationwide.

In any case it all should prove very interesting.

 


Bad new, TO - If ya still can't spell the guy's name, he ain't gonna do well! :~) (0.00 / 0)


Yr. Obedient Servant, Peter Porcupine, Republican

[ Parent ]
So , I never could spell anyway.. I still like the guy (n/t) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Biden didnt miss a beat (0.00 / 0)
He really demonstrated comfort with all issues he got a chance to address. 

[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
... but why is he so perenially insignficant in the polls?

How on Earth can Edwards be ahead of this guy?


the government can give you nothing
that it doesn't take away, first


[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
He ran for VP last election.  Voters are just starting to check in, and Edwards had sky-high name recognition from the 2004 campaign.  Go figure.

~~~~
Believe it or not, I have even more to say...


[ Parent ]
Answer? = $$$$$$$ (n/t) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Classic example of how "conservatives" think today (6.00 / 2)
This post is typical - hardly any facts or rational discussion, mainly consisting of name calling.

I put "conservatives" in quotes because I remember when the Republican party had people like Eisenhower, Saltonstall, and Ed Brooke, who supported traditional conservative values.  The people who call themselves "conservative" today are more accurately described as right wing radicals, who want to reverse the social progress of the 20th century, and ally themselves with anti-scientific religious extremists.

Web Developer, Photographer, long time political agitator


[ Parent ]
The Eisenhower conservatives are still around, (0.00 / 0)
...they're just in hiding, embarassed to show their faces to or amongst either party.

"The oldest ones are the young ones."

[ Parent ]
An observation... (0.00 / 0)
...As far as I can tell, Eisenhower wasn't particularly conservative, at least in the modern US sense.  He was anti-war, but he knew when wars needed to be fought.  He kept federal income tax rates at the high level of WWII, when others knew they were unfair (it took the supposedly liberal JFKennedy administration to bring them down).  Eisenhower also started the construction of the interstate highway system, and stopped the Korean War.  In a profound stroke of genius, he gave Joseph McCarthy just enough rope to hang himself with.

Eisenhower made a number of mistakes, mostly regarding Vietnam (which JFKennedy multiplied).  But he was no conservative.


[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
That comment was the calmest and most reasoned post from that commentator that I have seen on this site. So impressed was I by its comparative and unexpected sobriety that I was even tempted to stick a 5 or 6 on it. The eye exercise inducing phrase "Shillary" was its most offensive element.

If you think that was name calling, why, you don't know name calling!


[ Parent ]
I'm actually amused that.. (0.00 / 0)
...anyone paid any attention to this.  It appears to have been a snore-fest.  The 30th viewing of a Twilight Zone spisone would apparently have been more interesting.

Raj - I dont know if you saw (0.00 / 0)
it.  I thought it was a pretty good debate despite mediocre hosting and horrible pre and post debate framing. 

[ Parent ]
No, I didn't... (6.00 / 1)
...but I'm not particularly interested in candidates "on the spot" 15-30 second quips supposedly in response to some moderator's questions, which moderators are, in my view, stupid.

What I would be interested in are thoughtful and expansive expositions of their views.  You are not going to get that in a joint press conference that is laughingly referred to as a "debate."


[ Parent ]
PLEASE answer the question! (0.00 / 0)
What troubles me about this and basically all debates and interviews, is that the responses don't at all address the questions asked.  "Senator so and so, do you favor cherry soda?"....  "I'm glad you asked that question, but I think the real issue is "....and away we go.  They all do it.  It is an insult to those who listen.

[ Parent ]
Answer the question (0.00 / 0)
My let me be the moderator fantasy has always been: I will ask a question.  If the first word out of your mouth is anything other than Yes or No, I will shut off your microphone.  You can expand/explain after yes or no but that's where you start.

And you are right everyone seems to do it.  Do you like cherry soda?  Well Wolf my great grandfather came here as a poor immigrant from Slobiniskava and he taught my father the value of work at an early age.  I remember my father blah blah blah.  Choice is important in our country and...


[ Parent ]
Actually, I hate that type of "yes" or "no" question (5.00 / 1)
Usually it seems designed to force a candidate into choosing sides in a false opposition.  I like to see that a candidate has enough sense and mental agility to reframe a bad question. 

"Perseverance is a great element of success. If you knock long enough and loud enough at the gate, you are sure to wake up somebody." -Longfellow

[ Parent ]
Computer says no... (0.00 / 0)
My let me be the moderator fantasy has always been: I will ask a question.  If the first word out of your mouth is anything other than Yes or No, I will shut off your microphone.

If you wish.  You will never be moderator again.  Most questions of any importance in a political discussion do not reduce to "yes or no" answers.

I'll tell you another little story.  Twenty five years ago, I was defending a deposition in a lawsuit.  The deponent was not, at the time, working for any of the parties in the lawsuit, but I was defending the deposition on behalf of one of the parties in the lawsuit for whom he was previously an officer.  (The names of the parties and the deponent will go unmentioned, but I'm sure that you would recognize them if I did.)  The opposition asked the deponent a "yes-or-no" question, and the deponent proceded to answer. And answer.  And answer.  Eventually I, completely unappropriately, told the deponent to answer the question.  (I was afraid that his continuing commentary might cause my client heartaches.)  We had the question re-read.  The answer was one word.

Now, there are instances in which a one-word answer is appropriate.  A multi-phase joint press conference, which is what these "debates" are is not one of them.


[ Parent ]
Yes/No but because (0.00 / 0)
I think lots of questions can be answered yes or no with further explanation. Do you support a set time table for withwdrawal from Iraq.  Will you vote to override the president's veto of SCHIP?  Ogo did real well with that one.  I'm not suggesting questions can be answered with just yes or no just that's where you should start.  Leave your grandfather, the log cabin you grew up in and the rest of the crap that's designed mostly to dodge the question and answer the question.

[ Parent ]
An expensive entertainment (5.00 / 1)
I haven't heard anything that makes me feel I missed out by not seeing the debate.

If I could anoint a candidate, it'd be Dodd or maybe Edwards, but I cannot. On the other hand, Hillary Clinton is so far ahead on almost every metric that the primary season seems like a distraction.

It even seems like a dangerous distraction.

The media narrative is developing that Senator Clinton is a conniving witch with an evil cackle who says nothing she believes and parrots her handlers' lines with inhuman, flawless perfection. If, as seems very probable, she bags the nomination, we Democrats are going to be spending eight months fighting that mythology. The primary campaign and the "analysis" by airheads only tend to reinforce that which we will later have to work hard to dispel.


[ Parent ]
Don't Panic (0.00 / 0)
Choose one to make the statement true for each of the last several distrac -- err, primaries...

On the other hand,

Gary Hart
Paul Tsongas
John McCain
Howard Dean

is so far ahead on almost every metric that the primary season seems like a distraction.

* Choose one name to make statement true for

---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
Hey (6.00 / 1)
I'm in favor of some primaries: Edwards (against Wyn) in Maryland and Pera (against Lipinski) in Illinois.

The tone of the Democratic Primary for President has just plain gone off the rails. As Krugman notes today in the New York Times, Obama is saying stupid and counterproductive things about social security.

Can someone please stop him?


[ Parent ]
... (5.00 / 1)
The tone of the Democratic Primary for President has just plain gone off the rails. As Krugman notes today in the New York Times, Obama is saying stupid and counterproductive things about social security.

Can someone please stop him?

Who? Krugman? No way  ;=}

All seriousness aside, I rather hope the primary process is the place to identify people who say and do stupid and counterproductive stuff. Saves us from learning about it after the election... No?  Kinda like sunlight, innit?  That's the process...

---

"Providing health care to the uninsured is a job killer, while not providing health care is merely a people killer....   Bonus: Job Openings!!"

--Stephen Colbert


[ Parent ]
Meta and response (0.00 / 0)
Hey, petr, you do not need to blockquote a comment to respond to it. It really is pretty obvious what you're responding to.
On stupidity: I'm reminded of listening to Bush back in 1999. Everything he said sounded like an appeal to stupidity and he hasn't disappointed. The problem is that in our emotional, low information, couch potato republic appeals to stupidity can be quite appealing. Stupidity is often brims with truthiness.

The social security thing is one of them. Obama prattling about it almost as dangerous as Feinstein's recent votes.

The other area where stupidity reigns is in the propaganda about just how necessary torture might be in certain (outlandish) scenarios.

In a republic of Thomas Jeffersons, we would be assured that the market of ideas would kill stupidity like a bug. In the dank, dark world of soundbites and reality TV, stupidity spreads like cockroaches in a greasy kitchen. It requires active eradication.


[ Parent ]
Please, KBusch, do not impugn reality TV. (0.00 / 0)
However bad 'Fear Factor' and 'Top Chef' may be, they've nothing on the sins of Tim Russert, Brian Williams, and Chris Matthews toward our national discourse.

[ Parent ]
Do I HAVE to eat a slug now? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Huh? Krugman's the one that's off the rails. (0.00 / 0)
Obama is saying raise the cap on income subject to social security tax to ensure the ability to pay benefits to future retirees.  Seems like a good solution to me - better than cutting benefits or raising the retirement age. 
 

"Perseverance is a great element of success. If you knock long enough and loud enough at the gate, you are sure to wake up somebody." -Longfellow

[ Parent ]
Wolf Blitzer got stepped on like a bug by the Clinton Machine. (0.00 / 0)
Likely he was told that a couple of bubba's from Little Rock would pay him a visit some night if he didn't play ball. I used to think that every one of the conspiracy nutters was a real loon. Now I am beginning to wonder.

Nope, they are real loons. (0.00 / 0)
Especially that old racist Justice Jim Johnson.

it's not hard to intimidate Wolf Blitzer.  You don't even have to give him a hard stare.  We saw Cheney do it a few months ago, when Blitzer asked him about Cheney's acquiescence to anti-marriage-equality despite his own daughter being a lesbian.  Wolf was compelled to qualify his question with statements, "I love being invited to your parties, you're fun to socialize with, but I kinda hafta ask you..."

All Hillary's campaign manager has to do is hint that Hillary won't give Wolf any interviews any more, and Wolf will heel.


[ Parent ]
MCRD could be a Rush Limbaugh dittohead (5.00 / 1)
That's where this B.S. came from.  Digby has the goods.

[ Parent ]
My CLinton Question is this (0.00 / 0)
Though I acknowlege that the Clintons have a well-deserved reputation for being a bit oily, I like them.  I look fondly on the 1990s, a time of great prosperity.

A significant reason for voting for Hillary would be to get old Bill back in the saddle again in some capacity, whatever capacity.  Let him travel the world and do his thing.

I and others have expressed concern with the baggage.  HRC is a polarizing figure, for whatever reason. A greater concern than their inherently polarizing nature is their long track record of handing mounds and mounds and mounds of ammunition to their enemies.

At what point between now and next year is Bill going to have a bimbo eruption?  Or is Hillary going to have a travel-files secrecy crackdown?

She has run a machine-like campaign, as she should, because they have been there.  But, in the past, they have thrown a wrench into their own machine, seemingly for no reason at all.

Are folks who would like to see the back of the Bush administration setting themselves up to be suckered again?


That... (0.00 / 0)
Though I acknowlege that the Clintons have a well-deserved reputation for being a bit oily, I like them.

...is the whole point of snake-oil salesmanship.  Snake oil salesmen are liked, but they aren't trusted.  Bill pulled it off better than sHill has been able to (well, he was from the South, after all, and she wasn't), but sHill will probably be the Dem nominee.

The Rep candidates probably aren't particularly well liked, but they can be trusted.  Their problem is that they can be trusted to do the wrong thing.


[ Parent ]
What kind of a question is that? (0.00 / 0)
If you've got an opinion, CMD, why don't you say it? There are no "authorities" on BMG to provide you with the deeper meaning of Hillary's candidacy.

As for being "suckered", the Clintons have a record of electoral success that is unparalleled on the Democratic side of the aisle. Your question strikes me as equivalent to a Republican asking querulously whether Karl Rove could really be trusted to win an election.

"The oldest ones are the young ones."


[ Parent ]
A rhetorical question (0.00 / 0)
Of course the Clintons can win elections, and then they can absolutely piss the whole thing away on some absurd scandal of their own making.

[ Parent ]
SENATOR Clinton...SENATOR Obama....manners pahleeze (5.67 / 3)
Senator Obama's use of "Hillary" rather than Senator was certainly deliberate. That is an old trick from the debate prep toolbox that Barack Obama and David Axelrod surely discussed in the prep time...diminish the opponent...in this case, she is the girl and he is the (towering) man lecturing/educating the lady...

Watching all of the male commentators today parse and dissect last night's debate was interesting.  There isn't a woman in the US who did not understand the message loud and clear when, in response to Campbell Brown's question to Sen. Clinton about her Wellesley old boy network comment, Sen. Clinton said "Now, Campbell...."...she could have stopped right there...she connected like a laser beam with every female watching, even the ones not supporting her...especially women over 40...every female head tuned in on this debate was nodding, remembering their own like experiences.

Sen. Clinton did fine because she wore them down and wore them out...and the Nevada pro-union Dems audience was obviously with her (not Edwards or Obama)...

Her own campaign branding using "Hillary" in the logo just differentiates her from another Clinton presidential candidate...but that does not give Senator Obama license to use her first name in a formal program where formal courtesies are being observed by everyone... in the US Senate she is his senior, in more ways than one.

 





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